Why No Height?
 

Probably a stupid thing to ask, but I am curious.

When you buy flower seed or plants, trees, just about any growing type of plant to include peppers, they all have the height listed with it.

It is not easy for those not all that experienced with tomatoes, especially when growing new varieties, to know how tall they are going to get.

When you go to the seed sites and other information places about tomatoes, they will tell you every detail but an avg. height. Why is that?

Like I have been reading posts here where some folks will top a tomato plant because they get so tall, but it would be nice to know from the time you have a seedling what to expect.

The main reason I ask is because I was planning on putting those that grow tall in one area with higher supports and the shorter ones in another area and realized I have no idea how to do this because I don't know what the plants will do.

Did folks at one time, put an avg height and than just faze it out or did they never start doing it?

Just wondering about it and wishing those selling seed would maybe include a little note about possible heights in their descriptions.

Average tomato plant heights:

Determine is 3-4 feet.
Indetermine is 6-8 feet.

The exact height will depend on climate (the further South you are, the bigger the plants get), fertilizer, watering, etc. Some varieties of course tend to be taller than others. Hybrid cherries in particular, like Sungold and Sweet 100, can reach 10 feet in a good year.

Feel free to lookup tomato varieties on Dave's garden or other sites. They sometimes have more specific height info.

Thank you Feldon. That is a big help for sure. Now I at least have an idea of what I am working with and how to try and stake and how tall I need to make those stakes. I am writing your post in my notebook, so I don't forget.

Starlight, they do grow like Feldon explained. In a typical year here in Texas - a SSC 100 usually grows 7' tall. So far, this very wet year - they're not growing that tall. Instead, they are growing more wide than usual. Our Porter tomato plants are growing more like short thick bushes. Normally, they grow about 8' tall and 3' wide. I'm wondering if when it quits raining - if they will be 4' wide and 8' tall?

I think Feldon said it pretty well.
Growing conditions, climates .. can influence those numbers.
Then there are exceptions to the rules. Certain varieties may have different growing habit .

Gardeneer

[QUOTE=AlittleSalt;473329]Starlight, they do grow like Feldon explained. In a typical year here in Texas - a SSC 100 usually grows 7' tall. So far, this very wet year - they're not growing that tall. Instead, they are growing more wide than usual. Our Porter tomato plants are growing more like short thick bushes. Normally, they grow about 8' tall and 3' wide. I'm wondering if when it quits raining - if they will be 4' wide and 8' tall?[/QUOTE]

I know you folks are really getting the rain. I hope your plants will still produce some good tomatoes for you. It thundering now and I am going to have to unplug. Figures it would rain after I watered. :lol:

[QUOTE=Gardeneer;473345]I think Feldon said it pretty well.
Growing conditions, climates .. can influence those numbers.
Then there are exceptions to the rules. Certain varieties may have different growing habit .

Gardeneer[/QUOTE]

I have read about some folks having like 10-15 foot tall tomato plants. I sure hope I don't have something like that growing. I can't even imagine it. :shock:

At least now I have a starting place and can group my determinates from indeterminates. That is a relief. :D

Don't forget sunlight - direct sun from dawn to dusk leads to less "reaching" - lower light conditions reduce yields (especially larger fruited varieties) and can create monster vines.

There are just so many variables that as Feldon said, best to just assume you will have to use tall stakes for indeterminates (I buy 8 foot tall ones), and use useless tomato cages (the 3 or 4 foot cone shaped things) for determinates and dwarf varieties.

[QUOTE=nctomatoman;473353]Don't forget sunlight - direct sun from dawn to dusk leads to less "reaching" - lower light conditions reduce yields (especially larger fruited varieties) and can create monster vines.

There are just so many variables that as Feldon said, best to just assume you will have to use tall stakes for indeterminates (I buy 8 foot tall ones), and use useless tomato cages (the 3 or 4 foot cone shaped things) for determinates and dwarf varieties.[/QUOTE]

Great! You just answered another question I had. A friend brought me a slew of material that could be used for shade cloth and I was going to ask if it might be to thick and dark for the tomatoes. Now I know the answer is yes.

Thanks for the info. :) It raining again today, so it is a perfect day to go to town and find stakes. At least I won't come home with something to small now. I found out duck tape, while great for most things, does not hold short skinny sticks together when trying to add on for some height. :? :lol:

In addition to all the variables that have been discussed, perhaps the reason that variety height is not mentioned is b/c the seed vendor has no idea of how customers are growing their tomatoes, so doesn't want to be held to any specifics.

Historically when tomatoes were grown here in the US they were grown by sprawling and it wasn't until Italian immigrants started growing them with supports, as they did in Italy, similar to how grapes were and are grown in Italy.

It's also a matter of what kind of space a person has to grow tomatoes, those who still sprawl them usually have lots of space to do so while caging, trellising, etc., allows for growing more plants than if sprawled.

Commercial growers also sprawled them for many decades but now they use determinate varieties whch makes it easier to harvest by machine.

I had lots of room so I'd say that perhaps close to 90% of my several thousands of tomatoes grown were done so by sprawling, but when I moved here after retirement in 1999 for the first two years I grew my tomatoes elsewhere and yes, still grown by sprawling,

But when I started growing tomatoes here where I lived I used containers with those simple 3 ring supports and that worked out OK, but not as good IMO as growing inground.

Just trying to share a different perspective that for some growers that the possible height of a variety makes no difference whatsoever as to variety selection and suggested possible height.

Carolyn

Going with what Carolyn posted, one of my many experiments this year is to see how tomato plants grow sprawling vs caged. Both varieties are IND cherry tomatoes growing in separate raised beds 3' apart. The beds were amended the same way with oak leaves and 10-10-10 fertilizer. Same storms, hail, amount of rain, etc. Both were planted on the same day.

In picture 1, the plant is 4' wide x 3' deep x 2' tall. It has never had support by cage/s. The loose wires are there to protect it from high winds from thunderstorms.

Picture 2 has had a simple cage around it all along. It is 3' wide x 3' deep x 5'-2" tall.

Still a fun photo to post. I'm 6'9" and I'm picking a Sungold at Suze's in 2007. I cannot reach the top branches and we later had to get a ladder.

[url=http://feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/v/memberphotos/suze/showdown/CIMG3065-morgansungolds.jpg.html?] [img]http://feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/d/5877-2/CIMG3065-morgansungolds.jpg[/img]
Click for Larger Size[/url]

[QUOTE=carolyn137;473417]In addition to all the variables that have been discussed, perhaps the reason that variety height is not mentioned is b/c the seed vendor has no idea of how customers are growing their tomatoes, so doesn't want to be held to any specifics.

[COLOR=Blue]That makes alot of sense. People don't seem to have a lot of patience now a days and so I could see where they might blame a smaller sized plant on the vendor and not their gardening practices.
[/COLOR]
Historically when tomatoes were grown here in the US they were grown by sprawling and it wasn't until Italian immigrants started growing them with supports, as they did in Italy, similar to how grapes were and are grown in Italy.

[COLOR=Blue]More history. Awesome! Ya know Carolyn when I think back on the times of some of the early settlers and the hardships they had to face, I wonder how they even managed to grow tomatoes. Gotta give those folks alot of credit ot only for being able to grow in those conditions, but to save seed so we have the heirlooms for today to experience. [/COLOR]

It's also a matter of what kind of space a person has to grow tomatoes, those who still sprawl them usually have lots of space to do so while caging, trellising, etc., allows for growing more plants than if sprawled.

Commercial growers also sprawled them for many decades but now they use determinate varieties whch makes it easier to harvest by machine.

I had lots of room so I'd say that perhaps close to 90% of my several thousands of tomatoes grown were done so by sprawling, but when I moved here after retirement in 1999 for the first two years I grew my tomatoes elsewhere and yes, still grown by sprawling,

But when I started growing tomatoes here where I lived I used containers with those simple 3 ring supports and that worked out OK, but not as good IMO as growing inground.

[COLOR=Blue]I wish growing in the ground was an option for me, maybe someday, but no way for now. Did you let any sprawl in the containers? How did that work out if you did? [/COLOR]


Just trying to share a different perspective that for some growers that the possible height of a variety makes no difference whatsoever as to variety selection and suggested possible height.

[COLOR=Blue]Appreciate it![/COLOR]

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AlittleSalt;473457]Going with what Carolyn posted, one of my many experiments this year is to see how tomato plants grow sprawling vs caged. Both varieties are IND cherry tomatoes growing in separate raised beds 3' apart. The beds were amended the same way with oak leaves and 10-10-10 fertilizer. Same storms, hail, amount of rain, etc. Both were planted on the same day.

In picture 1, the plant is 4' wide x 3' deep x 2' tall. It has never had support by cage/s. The loose wires are there to protect it from high winds from thunderstorms.

Picture 2 has had a simple cage around it all along. It is 3' wide x 3' deep x 5'-2" tall.[/QUOTE]

Your plants are looking good. :D Great idea for an experiment. That some difference already. You'll have to report back on progress and which one you seemed to like better.



[QUOTE=feldon30;473520]Still a fun photo to post. I'm 6'9" and I'm picking a Sungold at Suze's in 2007. I cannot reach the top branches and we later had to get a ladder.

[URL="http://feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/v/memberphotos/suze/showdown/CIMG3065-morgansungolds.jpg.html?"] [IMG]http://feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/d/5877-2/CIMG3065-morgansungolds.jpg[/IMG]
Click for Larger Size[/URL][/QUOTE]

:shock::?: That looks more like a forest than a tomato patch. Unreal! Never seen anything like that before. So glad you shared the photo. Just too cool! I bet your plants were the talk of the neighborhood. :)

Everytime I look at mine, I'll be thinking about your pic and giving my guys a pep talk. :lol:

I wish growing in the ground was an option for me, maybe someday, but no way for now. Did you let any sprawl in the containers? How did that work out if you did?

&&&&&

The ones in containers were half sprawled if you will, b'c a flimsy 3 ft 3 ring structure was used only to get the plants up a little higher until the branches spilled over the top and hung down. And of course the lower branches would stick out through the lower rings as well.

Given my choice I would always allow my tomato plants to sprawl inground. Many in the south say, oh, I couldn't do that b'c of bugs and critters and so many spoiled ones that make contact with the soil.

Fact is, that when sprawled, you get what I call a nest of stems and leaves in the center of the plant and that's where most of the fruit set and maturation occur and very few are lost by making direct contact with the soil.

I think it's always useful to try different methods, whether it be sprawling, caging, a single pole where only two leader stems are allowed to grow upwards ( good for folks with little space), trellising or using a fence of cattle panels and growing plants on both sides of those panels.

But any comparisons should always be done in the SAME season with the SAME varieties so that direct comparisons can be made,

Carolyn

[QUOTE=carolyn137;473537]I wish growing in the ground was an option for me, maybe someday, but no way for now. Did you let any sprawl in the containers? How did that work out if you did?

&&&&&

The ones in containers were half sprawled if you will, b'c a flimsy 3 ft 3 ring structure was used only to get the plants up a little higher until the branches spilled over the top and hung down. And of course the lower branches would stick out through the lower rings as well.

Given my choice I would always allow my tomato plants to sprawl inground. Many in the south say, oh, I couldn't do that b'c of bugs and critters and so many spoiled ones that make contact with the soil.

Fact is, that when sprawled, you get what I call a nest of stems and leaves in the center of the plant and that's where most of the fruit set and maturation occur and very few are lost by making direct contact with the soil.

I think it's always useful to try different methods, whether it be sprawling, caging, a single pole where only two leader stems are allowed to grow upwards ( good for folks with little space), trellising or using a fence of cattle panels and growing plants on both sides of those panels.

But any comparisons should always be done in the SAME season with the SAME varieties so that direct comparisons can be made,

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

Carolyn I have let tomato plants sprawl here where I live.
I have lost very few tomatoes doing it no more so than any other way.
The reason I dont sprawl is the lack of room.
I have had may tomatoes ripen setting on the ground I have two of them in the house now.

A total waste of time even trying to stake cage or any other thing with wild cherry.:)

Worth

In my limited experience growing in containers I never got plants nearly as tall as the ones I grow in the ground. Even so it was not unusual to have them reach well over 8 feet. In ground the limit seems to be how long the season lasts and if the plants stay healthy and well fed. I did notice that the larger containers seem to produce the largest plants of the same type.

Bill