Seedlings with curling leaves
 

My seedlings look aweful a couple of weeks after transplanting from seed starting mix into miracle grow potting mix. It is what I have always used. I see a lot of dirt/potting mix on them, I wasn't super clean/careful repotting them and have turned them upside down a time or two, to check the roots and underside of leaves. I am stumped. Aphids I am not seeing? every once in a while I think I see a fungus gnat move while watering out of the corner of my eye but if there, they certainly aren't heavily infested. I removed a couple from the cups and roots are developing but not extensive yet, so its hard to remove them and keep the root ball intact. Already tore some roots trying it one, but they were certainly not water logged. I was worried about over watering. Then I thought maybe they were too dry but did not improve after I watered. I replaced the light bulbs in the lights a week ago maybe, and keep them very close but I don't see any signs of leaf burn. I don't want to loose 50 seedlings and have to resort to big box plants or give away the extras like I usually do if they are infested. Thr 3rd pic the large leaves are blurry but it shows a good clear pic of the curled leaves in the background. The little tiny plants never got transplanted and are right next to the larger ones and look fine. If it were aphids wouldn't they go after the little ones too? I am just stumped at this point.

[IMG][url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmwN1][img]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/830/40256782100_160a4cbec1_c.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmwN1]2018 seedlings[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152340683@N05/]Susan Albetski[/url], on Flickr[/IMG]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmwqY][img]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/908/40256780880_fd1a8f7f77_c.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmwqY]2018 seedlings[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152340683@N05/]Susan Albetski[/url], on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmw6E]

[img]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/975/40256779760_a61eaf01b2_c.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/24kmw6E]2018 seedlings[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152340683@N05/]Susan Albetski[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/25ZsJtS][img]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/980/41344375704_9b48e41e94_c.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/25ZsJtS]2018 seedlings[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152340683@N05/]Susan Albetski[/url], on Flickr

I believe this is just dirt/potting mix:

[url=https://flic.kr/p/25ZsJxu][img]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/944/41344375914_d4f3ed2099_c.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/25ZsJxu]2018 seedlings[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/152340683@N05/]Susan Albetski[/url], on Flickr

Wow, that almost looks like herbicide damage but I don't see how it could be. Geez, I feel for you. Hopefully someone can chime in with some diagnosis and solution!

The last picture (#5) looks like dirt, but the black spots in the third from the top (#3) looks like a different story. Most of the spots are too uniform in shape to be just dirt. You might want to clean the under side on just one of those leaves then come back in about a hour and check if any black spots have returned.
Dutch

[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]Possibly too much light intensity. I'm guessing that the roots were damaged, the plants were subjected to transplant shock and had less ability to take up water. With the reduced water, less transpiration could take place to help cool the leaves. And with the addition of the new lights/bulbs, the increased light intensity has put the plants in a state of stress.

The fact that the un-transplanted seedlings are unaffected clearly point to a physiological stress that happened during and directly after the transplant.

Raise the lights up and keep the growing medium's wetness as even as possible. Hopefully the plant's root systems will recover enough to alleviate any issues with the new growth going forward (though the old, twisted leaves likely won't straighten and could even die off).

By the way, what type of lights (LED, T8, T5, etc.), how many of them, and how close were they to the tops of the plants?
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T12 lights about an inch from the tops. That is what I have done in the past, but maybe needed to with the old bulbs if they were getting weaker. I don't remember how close I kept them when the lights were new. But as close as I could without the lights touching the plants.

[SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond][B]T12s shouldn't be too intense in general, but new bulbs will be quite a difference from old, worn-out tubes.

I'd raise them up a few inches more for the time being and see if you can halt the leaf issue. Those images seem to show (and maybe you can confirm) that the upper-most leaves closest to the lights are the most affected. The lowest ones seem mostly normal... and the un-transplanted ones are completely unaffected.
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They look too wet and no air?...Can you move at least a few or a dozen sequestered
to another location in the home? a fan on med/high?

Separate them. Move a few outside in shade. The weather seems good to be outside
this week. Let them dry out outside...just a thought.

At this point in our climate and difficult humidity, rain, chilly, hot, sunny, try to treat
a few a bit different....

I thought about them being too wet that is one reason I removed a couple from the cups to check. Not too wet at all, soil does not even hold together, and certainly not soggy. I watered a couple just before taking pics that may be why they looked wet. Some had dry soil starting to pull away from the sides of the cup. No yellowing leaves or spots that look like disease or other bug damage. The curled leaves do feel a little dry but are not browing and do not crumble when I touch them. Raining here and I am afraid to stess them more by trying to transition to outside when they are already stressed. I might try that with just a couple in a couple of days or later this week if nothing else works. It is raining today, and it is supposed to be 85 on Tuesday, so I would wait until Weds. The really curly leaves are clean underneath, I don't see any dirt or bugs at all, but they tear a little when try to open them so I don't want to maniplate too many. I moved the lights higher. I had a ceiling fan I have been using that I had forgotten to turn on today. I moved the lights higher and put the fan on. I am going to avoid watering unless I start to see a little wilting or pulling away from the sides of the cup again I guess. I have found in the past it is better to err a little on the dryer side. But if it is from the lights, they need enough moisture. I know putting them outside has improved things once or twice so I will watch the weather and consider that starting on Weds. This is so odd. I am not that new at starting seeds and usually have 75-100 healthy seedlings to give away. The only time I have had disaster I left them outside all day while I was at work and it got very windy and they were dried out and toasty when I got home. That was a heart breaker. If all those leaves end up falling off, I might as well go buy plants because they will be sticks and recovery will take a long time. Plant out is about 10 days to 2 weeks away.

In the copy below of your third picture, is that a tomato leave I have circled red?
Do you see white spots on it?
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Dutch

I think that they will outgrow the curl once planted out. I think that it is due to too much nitrogen.

yes it is, Dutch, and it does look suspicious for a couple of aphids. I will check again but I didn't see any. I have moved them around so it would be hard to be sure which one it is. Don' t you think it would take quite a few to cause this much damage, though? I wouldn't think I would have to search this hard for them. The underside of the curled leaves are clean. I can't hold one open and take a pic at the same time, though. But the dirty leaves are the older ones and the newer leaf growth is curled and clean. Maybe I can identify the leaf and check it again.

I would transplant them soon if possible, and wash the medium while doing it. There's a high chance of something funky in there. Like slightly wrong pH coupled with maybe too high of some microelement can lead to some really bizarre things happening, or some other contaminant in the potting mix. There were some tests here for organic fertilizers and some scored up to traces of 7 pesticides, and even some of the high brands had like 3 (plus heavy metals). Potting mix is even more likely to be contaminated, especially lately with so many going 'peat reduced, for the environment', which means the clean sources of peat are now replaced with other things which are likely to be contaminated.

Oh your poor seedlings. I would be highly suspicious of that potting mix. It is obviously something that all of the seedlings have in common. I know that you have used this brand before but not this BAG. Possibly something is wrong with the mix since every plant seems to be affected. You could not have damaged every single plant during transplant and if it were aphids, I would expect to see them if they were causing that much damage and I would also expect to see them on the smaller seedlings.

If it were me I would take a couple of little seedlings that are not affected and plant one in that Miracle Gro mix and another in a new mix and compare results.

Do you have another brand potting up mix that you could re-pot a few?

I believe that one brand last year could be completely different this year. Last season
I was convinced I had the 'bottom of the barrel' of a seed starting mix. It turned to
concrete after the first bottom watering...

This year an early started tray went south fast. Very few of those starts did well once
potted up. (I saved a few just to see and still look stunted)
So, I now have three seed starting mixes and three different potting up bags. I so don't
trust what worked before will do the same.

Fortunately I dense planted but repeated the same dense planting a couple weeks later
and the second tray is very healthy. Completely different seedling health. You would never
guess they are from the exact same seed packets.

The reason I mentioned too much moisture is a solid crate last year holding a dozen
seedlings got hit by a heavy rain while we were out of town for the weekend. Wet feet
caused droopy foliage but recovered once dry.

Aphids are sneaky fellas.

[QUOTE=MissS;699743]I think that they will outgrow the curl once planted out. I think that it is due to too much nitrogen.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the first part of your answer but not the second part, well maybe a bit re N, but see below..


I don't find what you show as being rare,rather I'd call it unusual growth and it's called unbalanced growth.

Which means that the roots and or foliage or both are growing faster than they should. IMO it has nothing to do with fertilizers, etc.

I've seen it many times. As the plants grow they will get with it and the foliage will return to normal foliage.

[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18627[/url]

See post 5 above and the link I put up there as confirmation, but I didn't check that 2nd link to be sure it is still active,so fingers crossed..

Carolyn

Wow, thank you everyone for all your posts and ideas. The potting mix was a giant bag I had not used up last year, and was stored in my garage so it stayed dry. Not sure if I used that particular bag for seedlings last year or potted plants, but I didn't see any evidence of contamination last year. It would have had to have been contaminated in my garage somehow and that seeems unlikely.

I looked and looked and cannot find any aphids. The white dots on the pic might have been pieces of pearlite that are in the mix. Not positive, but I just can't be sure which leaf that was and can't find any actual bugs.

The plants did shoot up pretty fast once transplanted so maybe they need to "slow thier roll" a bit, lol. If Carolyn is correct maybe the root growth didn't keep up with the top growth. Those leaves do feel a bit dry on the edges, so maybe not enough roots yet to feed and water all that growth. This would be the best possible reason. I WANT this to be the reason, lol. The combination of more light from the new lights and potting soil with fertilizer in it may have spurred more growth than was good. We also had a couple of days that were quite warm in the mid to upper 80s and there is no ac in that room and it got quite warm. That may have spurred some growth too. Since they do feel a little dry, I moved the lights up a few inches. It might decrease the heat over them a bit, and decrease the light they get somewhat to maybe slow them down a little. I am going to keep using the ceiling fan, which is gentle. Working on keeping them moist but not soggy. I started these a couple of weeks later than I usually do and I was concerned about how small they still were, and I transplanted them into the Miracle Grow when they were a bit smaller with less extensive root systems than in the past. So maybe it was a combination of all those things happening at one time. This pysiologic leaf roll can be scary stuff, lol. It looks so dramatic.

Unless I start to see aphids or some other bug, or evidence of leaf disease, there doesn't appear to be much more I can do. I will keep an eye on them for that. I don't have other potting mix to try unless I buy new. The one large bag I have left is unopened but it is the same brand bought at the same time, so if it was contamintion at the source, it would likely be manufactured and packaged at the same time and it would likely be contaminated too. But these bags I think I bought 2 years ago. They were a good deal on Amazon with free shipping and the UPS gal and her partner carried them all up the drive and stacked them in my garage for me. How much better can you get with heavy bags of potting mix? For those like me who like to shop online and appreciate having everything delivered right to me, those UPS drivers are the unsung heros of our time. :yes:

[QUOTE=carolyn137;699844]I agree with the first part of your answer but not the second part, well maybe a bit re N, but see below..


I don't find what you show as being rare,rather I'd call it unusual growth and it's called unbalanced growth.

Which means that the roots and or foliage or both are growing faster than they should. IMO it has nothing to do with fertilizers, etc.

I've seen it many times. As the plants grow they will get with it and the foliage will return to normal foliage.

[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18627[/url]

See post 5 above and the link I put up there as confirmation, but I didn't check that 2nd link to be sure it is still active,so fingers crossed..

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

According to Grodan that is due to calcium insufficiency in the growing tips due sometimes to overgrowth (which can be due to root inefficiency and high humidity which slows calcium uptake).

I had a bag of potting soil I bought last year that was super moldy looking inside when I opened it up after sitting a year:shock: It was stored inside and the moisture content must have been too high when packaged. Only time that ever happened to me. I don't know if it was a leaf mold or something nasty. Also, you never know if a bag is carrying any disease.

In regards to lighting, duration per day is a factor also. Plants don't like too much light if the soil is dry. They will droop and later some of the leaves will shrivel/dry.

Aphids usually hang around if there's a good meal to be had.

Too much fertilizer will definitely cause the symptoms you had.

[QUOTE=zipcode;699863]According to Grodan that is due to calcium insufficiency in the growing tips due sometimes to overgrowth (which can be due to root inefficiency and high humidity which slows calcium uptake).[/QUOTE]

That's called tip burn and there are several reasons why it occurs.

Within some of the following links if it were me the first one I'd check out is that Cornell one called Vegetable ? Online and there are also pictures within several of the other links as well.

So basically what you are saying above is unbalanced growth, but bringing in CA++ and some other factors as well, at least as I read what you wrote.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn


[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=tip+burn+on+tomato+leaves&hl=en&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTm6Lg8IXbAhVuTd8KHTBxAE4Q_AUICSgA&biw=1706&bih=815&dpr=1[/url]

Carolyn

I have one plant now with tell tale sun burn on uncurled leaves. The leaft has turned white on top and the only time I have seen that before is when I pushed the harding off too fast or lost track of time and left seedlings in the sun too long.

[QUOTE=carolyn137;700027]That's called tip burn and there are several reasons why it occurs.
Carolyn[/QUOTE]

No, I was taking about curling of tops, usually called nitrogen excess, etc (which is basically also true). I was just expanding on what you said, why according to latest info does it happen specifically, and that is lack of calcium in growth tips, which does make sense since in these periods of 'overgrowth' is when BER usually occurs.

OK, I am close to throwing in the towel on the entiire lot this year. Have not watered most in at least 4 days, just a few that had actually started to wilt. No uncurling. Put them out on the north side of the house today, temps in the high 70's and they were in the shade from about 2 pm on. No change. It is supposed to rain tomorrow, so I guess I will have to bring them in because they are not supposed to be getting more water. After tomorrow, I will put them back out but if there is not significant improvement in 2-3 days, definately by the end of the week, i am going to buy some plants, whatever is available. It will be the first time I buy plants in 5 years, and it won't likely even be heirlooms unless I can find a few of the more common ones. :cry:

If you are thinking that watering is the problem and withholding water is not working then it is probably not the problem. Why not plant them in the ground and see if they start growing?

It should be warm enough for them to be planted in CT. Mine have been in the ground for 2 weeks in PA. I still suspect that potting soil.

[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]Sue, the curled leaves and branches will not uncurl. Just ignore the old, twisted growth.[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
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[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]What is important to watch is the new growth. If that is not curling as it grows, then you are on the right track. It can be difficult to assess its condition when the new growth is only a few centimeters long, so wait until the growth is a few inches to know if it is growing normally or not.
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There is no new growth that is not curled. THey still look the same. Will start watering lightly again and see if growth picks up. I did want the growth to slow so that the roots could catch up, hoping that would help. Nothing yet. I am just starting to harden them off so too soon to go into the garden. Also not sure I shouldl plant them just because I am afraid they are so behind at this point that I won't get fruit until much later than normal and my season is too short for that. Garden space is limited, better to buy new plants. I might see if I can find some of the more common ones locally and plant those and a few of the ones that are curling that I can't replace locally.

Sue. Have you taken them off the lights. Even by a very sunny window. What's there to lose...I would maybe consider putting one in dirt and see how it behaves.

I have several in the garage tonight because I put them out in the shad yesterday it was supposed to rain today, and it is still raining. I can turn off the lights for a day or two and see. Only a little less than half went outside, the rest are still under lights.

a thought come to mind. knats chewin on the root. Personally.....MG potting soil is crap and is full of crap, literally. Try using it on a indoor potted plant and your house will be gnat city. Anyhow, if the weather allows, maybe even try transplanting one in a semi-shaded area in real dirt with some sun just to observe A/B (if at this point you are considering it quits on the lot)

I guess it could be the soil, but I don't have a dislike for MG so I don't assume that must be the case. I have used it for 5 years without problems, including last year from bags bought at the same time. I mentioned previously I think, that I took several out of the cups to examine the roots and did not see gnats either on the top of the soil in soil in the cup. In the last 5 years I did have gnats one time and they were obious and taken care of by BT. I am concerned that since I stopped watering the growth has slowed down quite a bit but the one I checked yesterday still doesn't have an extensive root system although the roots I could see looked healthy. Might stick one in a pot and see what happens but it would have to be with the same soil. By the way, for some reason we don't have the choices in potting soil available that people furhter south so I do have to work with what is available. I could start watering with BT in the water, but if that is it, I probably don't have time to wait for them to recover. They would have to make a dramatic recovery.

[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]I'd pot them up into bigger containers and let the go outside and play for a while. Maybe they will recover... who knows?[/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
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[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]I wish you luck though!
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