Greenhouse Opportunity
 

I was walking down my street a few days ago past a high school that has just undergone major construction additions, and much to my surprise there was a big greenhouse along side the new multi-million dollar building (don't ask me who's paying for that!).

I called the school to find out about the greenhouse and I was put in touch with a biology teacher who is "running" the greenhouse. It turns out that this greenhouse is about 15' x 30' and has all the bells and whistles...huge exhaust fans, computerized climate control, etc.

The greenhouse is empty and there are no formal plans to do anything with it. The teacher said that he was told the greenhouse cost about $70,000.

To shorten the story, I happen to have 5 Napa Giant seedlings so I offered to come over and show his garden club how to separate tomato seedlings out of a 2" growing pot and transplant them into their own containers. The teacher didn't know that tomatoes were self-pollinators. He agreed that it would be good to get the greenhouse going, but he didn't know much about horticulture from what I discerned. I'm no expert but why the heck can't a high tech greenhouse grow stuff through the winter. He has the temp set at 80 for high and 60 for low so I'm going to press this opportunity as far as I can for utilizing the greenhouse for the students and try and let it earn its existence.

My plan is to get these 5 tomato plants going, and depending on what kind of commitment the garden club will make I will press on with other crops.

Any suggestions?

Charley

Charley, I help out the high school greenhouse here. I try to supply them with seeds and offer advice on how to get stuff for small money. I have them doing the plant names on cut up mini-blinds, I have steered them to other seed sources that won't cancel orders and send non-viable seeds, and I am trying to educate the "overseer" and his supervision about keeping the quality up by looking for seeds locally. I give them everything I can and it is always "no charge". The small budget the high school operation runs on is pathetic, but the kids are learning and it shows.

My advice is to get a few other folks in your area involved. Find out what plants sell best at the local big box stores. I'm talking about flowers and veggies and any thing else that warrants a couple of 72 hole flats.

Around here, in the spring, the school places a couple of large signs along the main highway announcing the opening by posting the hours the greenhouse is open. The students grab plant carriers and accompany each customer to help them find the plants they want.

This year, tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, and squash plants went for $1.50 for a 3 plant plastic. Some of the flowers went for $1.00 each and some of the larger ones went for $2.50 each.

The proceeds go toward restocking for the next year. Any additional goes into a scholarship fund. They usually sell out eveything in about 3 weeks or less.

Around here, it's Rutgers, Mr. Stripey, Cherokee Purple, and then California Wonder Bell Pepper, Cayenne, Jalapeno, and serrano peppers, and then Burpless Cucumbers, Yellow Squash, and then various flowers that do well here in East Tennessee.

There now, that should give you some ideas. :)

I had rather see a 70,000 green house as a 60 million dollar football stadium for a high school.:lol:
[url]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjG9cjxzOPIAhXGRiYKHWTBAE8&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEagle_Stadium_(Allen%2C_Texas)&usg=AFQjCNHV5aUDopTWgUh4vpBaro9s960bNg[/url]

I think it is a wonderful opportunity to help educate children. I like Ted's ideas.

Here is the football stadium in the city I was born in and still live very close to. I think they messed up on when it was built. It says 1941, but I think they meant 1491. They call it, "The Rock." [URL]http://www.texasbob.com/stadium/stadium.php?id=322[/URL]

Sounds like the school has the money to build a state of the art greenhouse with no real plan for educating with it. Until last year, I volunteered with the agricultural program offered through the vocational program for the Detroit Public Schools. They had anything but state of the art, but they did have a teacher and aide and students bussed to the greenhouse. The school system , however, did not give them the funds to buy anything to grow anything. We, volunteers helped them to grow what they could sell to raise money for the program to buy these things. Heirloom tomatoes were a big part of that sale. We also sold other vegetables, annuals and perennials, but the big draw was the tomatoes. I would make an illustrated list that was put on their website, and folks would come knowing exactly what they wanted and knowing they couldn't really find these plants anywhere else. The students helped with all aspects of the sale and were so proud of their results. That made me happy. The patrons were excited, too. Unfortunately, the program doesn't exist any longer.

The school needs to provide a curriculum and a teacher, so the students can complete an educational program they can use. You can support them with your experience, skills, seeds, plants, etc. You can show them your love of gardening, and the pride and concrete results of growing things. You can interact with the students. Maybe you can ever have a small space for starting you own plants (ulterior motive). But the school really needs to step up to the plate to make it worthwhile for the students.

Some excellent ideas, I hope this takes off. Positives for everybody.

:?::?::?::?:Good night! 70,000 big ones for a 15x30? I can't hardly wrap my brain around that. anyway...
Is this being used by a garden club of students or an actual class.
Plants plants plants. But 15x30 isn't really a huge amount of room to work with, either, so, my thoughts are along the same lines plant sales of vegetables and flats of flowers if at all possible. Mixed combination containers for Spring sales if those sell in your area
( add those soil moist crystals to the soil to retain moisture). You don't have a lot of room, but what about hanging baskets? all the plants started from seeds are very doable.
Are you going to try to utilize it yearish round or just from Jan to April? Or whenever your Spring market is? You could try some container growing of vegetables or a small hydroponic system just to get the idea of how hydroponics works. Is the floor finished (concrete) or sand/gravel? that may change how you use it. Check out MHP ? gardener out of Virginia to see what his project are going on in his houses. simple ECONOMICAL methods and ideas.

I work at the local college in the Biology Dept . We have 2 greenhouses and have plants growing year around . I help student plant seeds , transplant when ready and ect. I went to order seeds from this place ( [URL]https://www.tomatobob.com/[/URL] ) and said I needed them for biology class , the lady said oh there is no charge for the seeds and they shipped several packs of extra ones I didn't order . They are a class act place in my mind , I buy my personal seeds from them when I can .

I was going to buy a green house for $10,000 I think it was 12 x 16 or 18
It had all the bells and whistles fully automated and it was glass.
Sometimes I wish I would have bought it.

A government project always costs more than a private one.
It should be a crime.

If you bid a job with the government of any kind the way you would commercial you will lose money.

You had darn well better have your ducks in a row and read the contract like 5 times.
You will get stuck with prevailing wage, liquidated damages, if the inspectors want to they will run you through the wringer.
This is where you have to suck up and take them out to dinner and be their buddy even though you hate them
Sometimes even a little blackmail works wonders.
You dont have to do anything just get something on them and make sure they know it.
Does your wife know about the girl on the job? Click.
Now about that little thing with the sidewalk being off grade a wee bit.;)

Sometimes if not all the time they will make you hire a HUB subcontractor if one is available.
Then sometimes the Union is involved so you have to grease their palms.:lol:
Yep I can see where it would cost $70,000, been there done it.

Worth

Yep, Worth, I know it all too well. We, on occasion, bid on prevailing wage jobs. you should see the penalties for the finish date if you miss it. it makes you about sick to your stomach to actually get the job. then you worry about what you missed if you are the lowest bidder.

[QUOTE=clkeiper;510705]Yep, Worth, I know it all too well. We, on occasion, bid on prevailing wage jobs. you should see the penalties for the finish date if you miss it. it makes you about sick to your stomach to actually get the job. then you worry about what you missed if you are the lowest bidder.[/QUOTE]

I am really reluctant to jump into this mess again but I am going to have to do it.
All of the meetings and everything.
I would be happy going in circles on a tractor.

Charlie if you have the time give these guys every thing you've got.
Who knows you just may work your way into something.:yes:

And it would be great for the kids to learn from experience not just a text book.
Some of them will even put their phones in their pocket.

Worth

Not sure about your climate, but over here a greenhouse is a huge improvement in terms of foliar diseases, and tomatoes do so much better. In fact, they are the ones that benefit the most from it.
Don't forget the greenhouse rule: all tomatoes pruned to one stem (average density 2-2.5 plants per square meter) to maximize production (I assume it's tall enough).

Thanks folks. I appreciate all the input.

I just got back from a visit to the greenhouse where I demonstrated separating seedlings into their own pots. The high school students were all motivated to get their hands dirty and I was greatly encouraged by their overall appearance and behavior.

It turns out that the greenhouse is 40' x 25'. The earlier dimensions I stated were just estimated to me by the science teacher. It also turns out that he's a physics teacher, not biology. He is the only one with any interest in the greenhouse. He is very happy somebody else has an interest in the greenhouse. He told me the reason there is a greenhouse is that the school's construction improvement plan required that all existing buildings at the school had to be replaced and improved. He said they had a crummy little greenhouse before so they had to replace it and improve it. The engineers took it from there.

I told the teacher that I would come up with a plan for using it. He was very excited about that. Now, if anybody has some specific ideas for a plan to use it I am most receptive.

By the way, it has controls for heating, halide lighting, air conditioning, humidity control, and CO2 controls. It probably has more stuff that I didn't see offhand. I kind of feel like a kid who's dad just gave him the keys to the Ferrari.

Here's some pics.

Enzo really outdid himself on this one. What a great chance to flex your gardening muscles. Really cool.

First rattle out of the box Hanging baskets and Orchids.
Nothing would make the tax payer feel better than seeing something like that.
If you are going to be around this place very much keep and eye out for the stray pot seedling growing and pull it up.
Nothing would give the green house a worse reputation than to have it reported that the kids were growing weed in their new $70.000 green house.
It could ruin it for everyone.

Worth

WOW what a great green house! So happy for you... such a blessing Salsacharley.:D

What students came in? Was it a certain class or just misc interested students. For a plan, I think you need to know whether this is class credit or volunteer students or a club students can join. If it is a class, credentialed people with an approved curriculum need to be teaching it.

Then you need to know what the school wants for the program. Are they interested in growing for a sale, or just for the use of the students participating. If it were a sale, what would the funds be used for. What I cannot tell is if there is an automated watering system. Otherwise, someone will need to come in daily to water. Will there be funds for buying pots, soil and nutrients.

While all that is being addressed, I would start with the easy and satisfying tomato growing. I do not know the dimensions of the greenhouse we grew in for school, but I think they were probably 100 feet long. We grew 80 varieties and planted 30 seeds per variety. We potted into 4 inch deep pots and pretty much fill the greenhouse. You might have room for half that many varieties.

In Michigan, seeds for tomatoes were started in March. Before then, you could show the students about propagation. Most any plant can successfully be propagated with a mister, but some things do fine without them. If students could bring in geraniums, succulents or plants like tradescantia that are about to be frozen out at home, you could use these for propagation. Just make your cuttings, dip in rooting hormone and put in a tray with a mix of potting mix and perlite and give them a shadier spot in the greenhouse. in about 6 weeks, voila, new roots. I have had great luck propagating coleus and the like by doing the exact same thing, only putting the cuttings into a clear or semi clear storage container with drainage holes drilled, but with a lid. They will have new roots in as little as 3 weeks.

You could have a session on wintersowing or cold treatment of seeds for perennials. Vernalization. How about plant division. Seed saving. Fermentation of tomato seeds. Propagation of woody stem plants and trees. Just a few ideas of the top of my head.

Wow. They should put in a wood stove and burn $20 bills in it for heat. I am just flabbergasted at such a giant waste of money. Schools near me can't afford basic school supplies for teachers. They make the parents buy things like tissues and dry-erase markers for the classroom. Each kid's parents have to come up with $50-100 at the start of each school year just to have basic school supplies.

Sorry to be negative; I don't mean that as a reflection on anyone here. The best you can do is try to salvage some sort of educational experience for the kids out of that giant waste of taxpayer money.

That is an awesome facility, Charley!

I don't know if you live in a part of the world where there's lots of fresh produce all year round, but if a greenhouse like that was part of a high school here, my first thought would be teens + greenhouse = food for hungry teens. Even something to supply the cafeteria with a few fresh vegetables would be amazing here.

The pix make it obvious though, you'd need a jackhammer to plant there;), so it has to be containers and potting mix, and those will cost money.

If there is little or no budget for the necessary materials, I wonder if there is a business program being taught at the high school. Coming up with a plan to grow your budget from a small investment, at the same time growing your skills, is the kind of thing a business teacher might be happy to engage with the students. That is besides the biology applications.

[QUOTE=Cole_Robbie;511337]Wow. They should put in a wood stove and burn $20 bills in it for heat. I am just flabbergasted at such a giant waste of money. Schools near me can't afford basic school supplies for teachers. They make the parents buy things like tissues and dry-erase markers for the classroom. Each kid's parents have to come up with $50-100 at the start of each school year just to have basic school supplies.

Sorry to be negative; I don't mean that as a reflection on anyone here. The best you can do is try to salvage some sort of educational experience for the kids out of that giant waste of taxpayer money.[/QUOTE]

I sort of like the idea of kids getting this stuff and I went to a very poor school.
It was so poor.
The Junior high had holes in the wood floor the math teacher spit his tobacco juice in them.
It was built in like 1908 or something.
The heating didn't work well, we had to wear coats in class to keep warm.
There was no AC and this was in hot Oklahoma.
They couldn't have baseball and track for lack of money.
The tax base was so low because many of the people were on welfare or drawing an Indian check
My football coach and his wife who also taught there lived in what anyone would call a rent shack.
One of the most popular and prettiest girls in school lived in a shotgun tar paper shack.

Her father was a sharecropping type pulpwood cutter.
Another top girl in school had holes in her socks and her father ran the pulp wood yard.
Her toes stuck out of the socks half the time.

Then there was the really poor kids.
They counted up beans every night to share for supper.
A hand full of us lived on ranches and farms and live high off the hog compared to these poor devils and we were poor.
Some of the poor families would push their daughters off on us hoping we would get them pregnant so we would have to marry them.
This is no joke and I wouldn't fall for it.
Some of them the only meal they got was in school.
Their parents were alcoholics and spent all of the money on booze.
A good friend of mine was full blood Choctaw and his mother worked at the cafeteria.
His father was a school janitor and bus driver.
Mrs Crank would go home and fix enough food every night to feed not only her big family but the kids that were hungry.
She never charged me a dime for lunch at school and when the percentage went down for Indian in your blood line I qualified for free stuff.
Free work books Cap and Gown for graduation class ring and everything.

This place was poor with a capital P it still is.
It Sucked and I got the devil out of there as fast as I could.
I dont wish that on anyone.:no:

Yea for the $70,000 greenhouse and new school.:lol:
Worth

It's a laboratory, a continuously controlled growing environment, they cost more.

I hope you all don't think that New Mexico is some high income, deep pocket place. I honestly don't know the specifics of how the schools around here have been able to build millions of dollars worth of improvements, but I'm sure the funds for all the building comes from the same place all government spending comes from nowadays....debt and money printing.
[URL="http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=106"][/URL]
There are 14 public high schools in Albuquerque that have 2 to 4 thousand students each. 3 of the schools have been built within the past 5 years and they are absolutely mind boggling. They look like big research hospitals from the outside. The remaining 11 schools have each undergone renovations that make them equal to the new schools. One school was 40 years old and they just leveled it and built a new school that looks like one of those hospitals. I expect that all the high schools now have greenhouses like the one by my house.

NM is one of the poorest states in the Union. We also have one of the worst records for academic testing and graduation rates. My wife is an educational assistant at an elementary school and she buys everything thing from pencils and lunches to clothing for some of her kindergarten kids. They are almost all on some sort of public assistance.
Every kid at here school gets a free breakfast, usually consisting of chocolate milk, a sweet roll or muffin or some other high sugar food. The incompetence of the administration is disgusting.

I didn't start this thread to hash out government waste. I just was looking for ideas to utilize the facility that will remain 99% vacant unless someone does something with it. It will be unused in the foreseeable future unless outside influence is introduced. That's where I come in. I'm thinking now of just starting a winter crop of tomatoes and have the garden club kids participate as they wish, and share the bounty. I will also bring in other crops for community benefit (maybe get some nutrition for the elementary school breakfasts?). In con★★★★★★★★ with the teacher who is in charge of the greenhouse we can run some experiments on growing techniques and environmental conditions. My hope is that once there is activity and green stuff in the greenhouse more students will get interested. I'm going to start studying greenhouse management so I can try to get the most out of the marvelous structure.

It's probably similar to what happens here -- if a city or town wants to qualify for a very generous state funding package for a new school, the state has whole list of requirements that must be incorporated into the plan. Funding for repairs to existing schools is almost non-existent.

I think a tray of onions would be a great idea.

Worth

I have zero outrage and would have voted for the expenditure in my school district.

[QUOTE=Salsacharley;511471] I'm going to start studying greenhouse management so I can try to get the most out of the marvelous structure.[/QUOTE]

That's my point about the money involved - when you read about greenhouse management, what you're going to read was written with the goal of profit in mind. Unless a grower is producing one very specific cash crop, possibly on commission from the states of Colorado or Washington, no one is making enough money to pay the electricity to run those lights.

If you want to teach kids a practical life skill, build a cheap, unheated plastic box outside next to the structure and have them grow lettuce in it. That's my only issue with the money aspect - a school isn't doing kids a favor by teaching them that spending $5k/mo to grow $50/mo worth of tomatoes is a practical life skill. There's a history lesson there about NAFTA. In college, the political science class is called International Political Economy; it's about the globalization of trade.

As for the best way to justify the cost of structure, in my mind anyway, it would need to be very intensely academic. You can teach them breeding, maybe build some screen boxes around plants, and then have classes mimic the dwarf project here on tomatoville, by making their own tomato varieties that they get to select and name by voting on them. Beyond the biology of pollination, that would also lead to a good study of genetics.

An aquaponics section would be good, too, I think. They could study the nitrate cycle of aquatic systems and build their own ecosystem. They can add different types of fish, frogs, turtles, worms, and then study each of them and their function in the mini-ecosystem. The school probably has some microscopes somewhere; you can have them play around with microbiology, too.

[QUOTE=Salsacharley;511471]..
Every kid at here school gets a free breakfast, usually consisting of chocolate milk, a sweet roll or muffin or some other high sugar food. The incompetence of the administration is disgusting.

.. I'm thinking now of just starting a winter crop of tomatoes and have the garden club kids participate as they wish, and share the bounty. I will also bring in other crops for community benefit (maybe get some nutrition for the elementary school breakfasts?). In con★★★★★★★★ with the teacher who is in charge of the greenhouse we can run some experiments on growing techniques and environmental conditions. My hope is that once there is activity and green stuff in the greenhouse more students will get interested. I'm going to start studying greenhouse management so I can try to get the most out of the marvelous structure.[/QUOTE]

Charley that sounds like a great place to start, to me. Food is a great motivator for kids, especially teens. And I'm sure the powers that be whether it's PTA or school admin, will approve and support a usage that improves student nutrition! Add some basic plant biology and experiments, win win win. 8-)

Cole Robbie has a good point about unheated space for lettuce, but greenhouse first. Later you could expand the program to outdoor gardens, once the school/admin support and student enthusiasm is in place.

Tomatoes is a great choice of crop because even little kids like and will eat em.
Some kinds of peppers also have a great yield for small containers. Jimmy Nardello and Sweet Banana come to mind, with a yield = the volume of soil in the container... and will grow even in a 1 gallon pot.
Some other vegs that grow in shallow soil or small containers: celery, bok choy, turnips, lettuce and other salad greens for cut and come again. There's a kind of white turnip I really like called Hakurei turnip - they're small and crisp and sweet like a radish with no bite. Kids might like em.

The only place I know of where they can economically run a greenhouse is Iceland.
Which by the way has the highest literacy rate of any country in the world.

There is a heck of a lot of things that can be taught in the greenhouse that otherwise kids may not have had an interest in.
Will academics allow it I have no idea.

My vote is still for monster sweet onions.:lol:
With the lighting and so on you could grow any type you wanted.

Worth

I had a look online at the climate averages in New Mexico... don't forget the COST of climate controlled greenhouse depends on how different the desired conditions are from what's happening outside. They get lots of sunshine, so daytime heating is not going to be a big cost - maybe cooling or whatever mechanical energy it costs to open vents when the temp hits 80. So heating cost will be mainly for the chilly night time lows. The greenhouse itself will moderate the low at night by maybe around 10 degrees (mine does, without heat). If you have a warm day up to 80, it will hold the heat nicely once there's some mass inside - soil in containers for tomato crop - that warms during the day by passive solar.

As for lights, the magic number of hours that veggies need to grow is ten hours of daylight. So in Albuquerque, the day is shorter than that from November 30 to Jan 12. And at its worst, only 15 minutes short of ten hours! That's really good.... Even if you want a 12 hour growing day, it's only two hours of running the lights per day to get that for a couple of months per year.

I think the picture is very different in Illinois as it is here - beyond expensive to provide the heat and light that are missing here in the winter! Texas might be easy.
But when it comes to economics of a heated greenhouse in a cold place - what can I say, AKMark is the man to tell you all about it.

Worth, I think onions can go in the cold frame outdoors with no heat. ;)8-) Leeks and bunching onions would probably be fine with no protection at all, in New Mexico. :)

Charley, this is awesome! It would be cool if the home ec program could teach the kids how to prepare what they grow.

Besides tomatoes, if I had a greenhouse I would TOTALLY grow basil. It matures fast and people would probably buy plants.