Blue DANGER for the tomatoes.
 

This is the continuation of a post placed in another place but which is never taken back in the list of the answers given to a comment.

[url]http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=38552[/url]

I thus place the continuation in another place because I judge that this phenomenon has to be known of all the lovers of tomatoes.

[B][U][COLOR="Red"]Blue DANGER for the dwarf.[/COLOR][/U][/B]

[B][U]PART 1[/U][/B]


[B][U][U][COLOR="Magenta"]1) After the adventure of " pineapple blue ".[/COLOR][/U][/U][/B]


In 2010, I sowed several seeds of my OSU 01 to OSU99 and I tried some crossings with other varieties.
Next years, I noticed that some crossings had succeeded. I would show later what I obtained thanks to several testers which helped me.
From 2012, I did not realize any more crossings because I noticed that I had so many crossings realized by insects and bumblebees as those whom I tried to realize myself.
In 2013, I decided to install almost everywhere among my plants of blue tomatoes of the dwarf plants in jars and to see if I had fortuitous hybridizations.

[B][U][COLOR="magenta"]2) Dwarf in 2013[/COLOR][/U][/B]

Here are the varieties which I growed: Robin Hood and Tiny Tim.

[B][U][COLOR="magenta"]2) Dwarf in 2014[/COLOR][/U][/B]

Here are the varieties which I growed: Reinhards ' Goldkirsche, pink Olive and Idaho.
I obtained certain results in 2014 and 2015 for Robin Hood and the varieties photos of which you see.

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[B][U][COLOR="SeaGreen"]b) Filaris[/COLOR][/U][/B]

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3 different characters are present on F2 with regard to compared with F1
A) Leaves are different
B) Tomatoes are 7 times as big
C) The color of certain tomatoes are red and blue.

Remarks:
1) The blue color upset the relationship) of the characters of dominance.
2) There are 3 visible characters but how many characters are crossed here in fact. Blue appears almost everywhere!!!
3) Imagine the number of possibilities of crossings of 6 characters.
4) In 2015, I obtained identical plants in 3708AB 32inch in height.
5) And a plant of 100 inch high.

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I'm sorry, but your expression of English is difficult for me to follow. My understanding of what you are saying is that you made crosses with the OSU varieties in prior years, but now you are getting blue traits in varieties you did NOT cross, and further, your non-blue plants are being "mutated" in other ways which you attribute to the blue invasion. Is this close to what you mean to say?

French is my mother language.
But you understood everything.
I have many examples to be shown.

Higher than expected cross pollination seems to be a reasonable explanation for what you see. And there might be factors that enhance the cross pollination of Blues (more pollen, better pollen viability, increased insect visits to "blue" varieties...).

The likelihood that the non-blue varieties are "mutated", however, does not make sense to me. As a biologist, I cannot think of a mechanism that would explain a non-blue to blue mutation. You aren't suggesting this, are you?

It would seem to me that crossing any varieties would result in changes throughout a plant's structure and fruit with the introduction of various different genes resulting from the cross, regardless of whether the cross involved a blue variety. For the past 3 years I have been growing dozens and dozens of varieties together, including blue ones, and I have seen no blue seepage into others. I've seen very little crossing at all from any varieties. Perhaps I don't have the number of insect pollinators causing crosses as others do, although I have bumblebees at work constantly in my tomato patches. I will pay more attention in the future.

Something that should be considered is that many other strains show low levels of anthocyanin production, without any potential of crossing to OSU (or other "blue" strains). Sepal and leaf coloration is common. In particular, sepal coloration is present in var "Tiny Tim" and appears to be derived from the Solanum pimpinellifolium parent. The genes that result in the blue color of the OSU and derived strains have homologs in basically every other wild species which modern tomatoes were bred from. These genes can assort into combinations that result in enhanced anthocyanin production ([URL]http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.com/2014/10/making-new-blue-tomato.html[/URL]) without any potential crossing by OSU or related strains.

All my tries with Robin Hood were compared always every year with several plants of Tiny Tim. I have never noticed any blue indication on all my Tiny Tim (no blue sepals,no blue on the skin , no blue nowhere).
I consider moreover that Tiny Tim is a variety who résist to the pollen of blue tomatoes .

[B][U][COLOR="Purple"]d) Shadow Boxing[/COLOR][/U][/B]

[B][U][COLOR="Blue"]A) an unstable variety.[/COLOR][/U][/B]

This variety created by Tom Wagner is really unstable for several reasons:
1 °) Certain plants give rather different tomatoes since the first cluster up to the last one.
2 °) Certain indefinite plants are very big (> 100 inch) or less big (60 inch).
3 °) other plants are determined and do not exceed 40 inch.
4 °) There are even dwarf plants.
It is the reason why, I like studying this kind of instability.

[B][U][COLOR="Blue"]B) Indefinite Shadow boxing #5[/COLOR][/U][/B]

A Japanese ( Scope Seeds) worked well enough on this variety. I thus got myself seeds.
I harvested the seeds of a plant and in 2015, one of my testers followed 5 plants resulting from these seeds.
3001SS gave seeds 4856AB.
4856AB gave 5016BW

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The good photo is lower

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The good photo is:

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The picture below is an example of the kind of segregation I found in Shadow Boxing in 2013, these were all a generation beyond the original Tom sent out. If I recall correctly, this box was missing fruit from the dwarf lines.

My opinion is that it was released as a very early generation from some wildly different parent lines. I think that is part of the problem with many of the blue lines out there, they've been released unstable in the rush to market.

[IMG]http://www.onthemarksolutions.net/images/2013/Shadow Boxing Box.jpg[/IMG]

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The sepals are blue.

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The blue color can settle down on varieties stemming from hybrid F1 if you plant protected blue varieties.

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Ambiorix, while I agree with you to some extent that the anthcyanin types first used to create the glut of new "blue" tomatoes seem to have been highly attractive to bees, or otherwise seemed to have "special powers" of cross contamination, do you not think also that some of the dramatic variations you are seeing in your tomato population may be caused by the wildly unstable stage in the germplasm of a couple of the anthocyanin lines with which you began(Shadow Boxing, and other Wagner F2s and F3s)

That being asked, I still agree that the anthocyanin plants that first became available to several of the hobby and professional breeders (OSU Blue and P20) appear to have been highly attractive or highly susceptible to bees or bee-carried cross pollination.

The first and only time I grew OSU Blue, I saved seeds that resulted in the so-called OSU Large, which obviously was a cross between OSU Blue x a purple beefsteak in my garden (most likely Indian Stripe, as that was the purple type with the most plants present in that year's garden).

In another case, I grew what was supposed to be a pink cherry something from a Rose Quartz cross with another pink tomato from Keith Mueller, and got a ping pong size, red cocktail tomato with blue shoulders ... obviously contaminated by something Keith was working on from P20 crosses.

That was enough for me to stop growing anthocyanin types, as while I do experience accidental outcrosses, I do not experience them at the same apparent high rate as I did with the antho types. Same comment on the variegated foliage types ... they too have been barred from the garden.

This year I had Blue Beauty in my garden and late in the season I could see antho "contamination" almost on all of my tomato varieties, especially on yellow/orange ones. Did not see any bees this year, but it was windy. Chuchloma and some yellow from commercial pack

Should be Mr Stripey tomato

[QUOTE=travis;511459]Ambiorix, while I agree with you to some extent that the anthcyanin types first used to create the glut of new "blue" tomatoes seem to have been highly attractive to bees, or otherwise seemed to have "special powers" of cross contamination, do you not think also that some of the dramatic variations you are seeing in your tomato population may be caused by the wildly unstable stage in the germplasm of a couple of the anthocyanin lines with which you began(Shadow Boxing, and other Wagner F2s and F3s)

That being asked, I still agree that the anthocyanin plants that first became available to several of the hobby and professional breeders (OSU Blue and P20) appear to have been highly attractive or highly susceptible to bees or bee-carried cross pollination.

The first and only time I grew OSU Blue, I saved seeds that resulted in the so-called OSU Large, which obviously was a cross between OSU Blue x a purple beefsteak in my garden (most likely Indian Stripe, as that was the purple type with the most plants present in that year's garden).

In another case, I grew what was supposed to be a pink cherry something from a Rose Quartz cross with another pink tomato from Keith Mueller, and got a ping pong size, red cocktail tomato with blue shoulders ... obviously contaminated by something Keith was working on from P20 crosses.

That was enough for me to stop growing anthocyanin types, as while I do experience accidental outcrosses, I do not experience them at the same apparent high rate as I did with the antho types. Same comment on the variegated foliage types ... they too have been barred from the garden.[/QUOTE]

Travis I have always respected your thoughts on things from way way back,
You have convinced me to not have these things in my garden.

I hope I'm not considered the so called peanut gallery that was mentioned in the other thread.:(

[QUOTE=Allisa;511701]This year I had Blue Beauty in my garden and late in the season I could see antho "contamination" almost on all of my tomato varieties, especially on yellow/orange ones. Did not see any bees this year, but it was windy. Chuchloma and some yellow from commercial pack[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Allisa;511703]Should be Mr Stripey tomato[/QUOTE]

Now I am confused.
Are you saying that these plants produced this from commercial seeds not ones you saved?

Worth

Good question Worth and I'll ask another one.

If Blue Beauty was in your garden this year, as you said, then any cross pollination would only be seen from saved F2 seeds and subsequent plant out, not from fruits that developed in the same year.

Carolyn

[QUOTE=Worth1;511729]


Now I am confused.
Are you saying that these plants produced this from commercial seeds not ones you saved?

Worth[/QUOTE]I wasn't clear enough. I've purchased Sakharnyi Pudovichok from Ukraine , which supposed to look like on Tatiana's site [url]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Sakharnyi_Pudovichok[/url]

But instead I got some mystery yellow tomatoes (I planted only a couple of plants). They were completely yellow in the beggining of the season without any darker top, but toward the end of the season a few clusters began to develop different shade of darker tops, the more sunlight they got the "shoulders" looked more darker.

Mr. Stripey I got from a local nursery as a plant.

Chuchloma was from a very old commercial pack of 7 years old, which I got from Russia. Even though I grow it every year I didn't save the seeds from previous years. But I could tell the difference in the fruits even from the early season of this year.

Same happened to Orange Strawberry, which I've purchased back in 2012, Pink Honey (a commercial pack from Russia 7 years old), Pink Berkeley Tie-Dye, which I got a few years ago from Brad Gates site, and a number of other pink varieties.

Below, are more photos of the mystery yellow and Chuchloma. I did not make photos of others, but it was a similar story.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, because I've never done any intentional crosses myself and know almost nothing about crosses. But I noticed a big difference colorwise.

[QUOTE=carolyn137;511740]Good question Worth and I'll ask another one.

If Blue Beauty was in your garden this year, as you said, then any cross pollination would only be seen from saved F2 seeds and subsequent plant out, not from fruits that developed in the same year.

Carolyn[/QUOTE]
Don't know what to think, but my Orange Strawberries did not have these dark shoulders in the past. Today isn't enough light and my camera couldn't catch the true color tone/shade. It's more darker brownish.

Very odd thanks for posting the pictures.:)

Worth

For number of years my Chukloma used to be like on this man's video: evenly orange color without any "shoulders"
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snvx7Vh9Vvs[/url]
When the tomatoes got these "shoulders" later in the season it could not be ignored.

[QUOTE=Worth1;511772]Very odd thanks for posting the pictures.:)

Worth[/QUOTE]I just wonder if I'll save some seeds from these tomatoes (let say Orange Strawberry), how many plants I should plant next year for F1 and the year after for F2 in order to see if they are cross pollinated?

I have no idea I know less about it than you do.

Worth.

The [I]Dancing with Smurfs[/I] I've been growing had very little speckling (<5% of the surface) on top for the last 3+ mos. Today I noticed a cluster with some decent shading, about 30-40% of the orb. I've been looking closely since they started giving fruit, simply because they taste very good to me. Mosaicism perhaps? Incomplete penetrance? Who knows, I was happy I had some blues.

[QUOTE=Allisa;511775]I just wonder if I'll save some seeds from these tomatoes (let say Orange Strawberry), how many plants I should plant next year for F1 and the year after for F2 in order to see if they are cross pollinated?[/QUOTE]

I know Orange Strawberry very well, if you want to discuss thisone, see Tania'slink for it

[url]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Orange_Strawberry[/url]

First, you save seeds from the Orange Strawberry you grew this past summer, those are the F2 seeds. You sow them for plants next Spring, set out plants and see what you get.

There is no F1 involved.

So the same for any of the ones you grew that you say were contaminated with antho pigment.

Am I correct in assuming that your heritage is Russian or Ukranian or similar? If so, you cannot trust many seed companies there on what they show on the seed pack compared to what the seeds inside give you.

I learned this many years ago from Tania, Andrey in Belarus and Clara in Germany.

I've grown many Russian and Ukranian and Moldovan and Bulgarian, and Latvian, etc., varieties and before I knew which seed sites were the best it was a mess. Although many of those I got from individuals , from students and faculty where I was at the time teaching.To be honest, except for that great seed site in Estonia, from which I got about 40 new varieties recently, thanks to Clara, since my Russian is limited and I knew no Estonian, but she is fluent in Russian, it was terrible,Well I remember a variety known in English as Pink Flamingo and even Tania couldn't figure that one out when I sent her pictures from one of my seed producers who was growing it for me.But that Estonian seed site has changed dramatically in the past two years, mostly F1's and nothing I'm interested in

Why do I love varieties from Russia so much, especially the family heirlooms, not so much the ones that are bred there? Part of my heritage is Swedish and as you know the Swedes colonized many areas in Russia, so I once told Andrey that since it was some of my ancestors that went to Russia that I was at one time a Russian Princess.

Besides, when I hear a Russian men's chorus sing I melt down completely to a wee puddle of protoplasm.

Carolyn, who also has all those faux paper icons that Andrey once sent me.