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native soil for heirloom varieties
Hi Everyone!
So, I LOVE the black krim (Crim)tomato. I had a thought on how i could produce even more than my 7 plants currently develop. Then it hit me. A Heirloom must have started someplace and if i find the soil content where it came from and try to reproduce the soil here, then 'all' that remains is the climate to deal with. Unfortunately for me, i used all of my aloted tomato space for the first planting in the garden, 7 large plants all producing, 1 of which is a clone of the largest strongest plant. ANYWAYS, for those of you whom wish to try this with the black krim in your own garden OR container i am providing the content of the pertinent artical, which i will be using that contains the info for this project. enjoy and good luck! =============== In the Crimea there is an analogous, although inverse, sequence of soil belts associated with rising elevation from north to south: in the north, chestnut soils with associated solonetz soils and solonchak soils; in the middle, southern chernozems, followed by a carbonate-rich, shallow variant of the common chernozems and small areas of chernozems on heavy clays (Kerch Peninsula); and in the mountains, stony brown mountainforest soils interspersed with small pockets of mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the warm south slopes the soil is transitional into the reddish brown soils typical in a Mediterranean climate. A similar sequence occurs in Subcaucasia, with carbonate-rich variants of the common chernozems and the deep chernozems at low elevations in the north, carbonate-rich brown mountain forest soils on the mountain slopes, and mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the southern slopes to the Black Sea coast are reddish brown soils. Only the broad alluvial plain of the Kuban River is dominated by ‘azonal’ alluvial soils; its delta contains ‘intrazonal’ bog soils. In the Crimea there is an analogous, although inverse, sequence of soil belts associated with rising elevation from north to south: in the north, chestnut soils with associated solonetz soils and solonchak soils; in the middle, southern chernozems, followed by a carbonate-rich, shallow variant of the common chernozems and small areas of chernozems on heavy clays (Kerch Peninsula); and in the mountains, stony brown mountainforest soils interspersed with small pockets of mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the warm south slopes the soil is transitional into the reddish brown soils typical in a Mediterranean climate. A similar sequence occurs in Subcaucasia, with carbonate-rich variants of the common chernozems and the deep chernozems at low elevations in the north, carbonate-rich brown mountain forest soils on the mountain slopes, and mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the southern slopes to the Black Sea coast are reddish brown soils. Only the broad alluvial plain of the Kuban River is dominated by ‘azonal’ alluvial soils; its delta contains ‘intrazonal’ bog soils. |
[IMG]http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8#/media/File:Mykolaiv_province_location_map.svg[/IMG]
location of the original areas for the black krim (CRIM) |
[QUOTE=garden381;475231]A Heirloom must have started someplace and if i find the soil content where it came from and try to reproduce the soil here, then 'all' that remains is the climate to deal with. [/QUOTE]
And the invertebrate animals, and the farmer's habits, and the micro-organisms, and the angle of the sun, and the daylength, and the equipment, and the weeds... |
Black Krim was one of the first so called blacks that was listed in the SSE Yearbooks. When I joined SSE in 1989 there were only 5 black ones and it was first listed by Lars, from Sweden, in 1990 and I grew it in either 1991 or 1992 and many times after that.
Tania has it right when she says: [url]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Black_Krim[/url] That is, not on any island as many say, but for sure somewhere in the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine, not Russia back then as many also say. If Lars were still with us I'm sure he could tell us the exact place, but the southern part of Crimea is quite tropical, think Sevastopol, and was an excellent place for many crops, including tomatoes.:) Carolyn |
Kinda reminds me of Dracula and his Transylvanian soil!
Hey, if it works for vampires it should definitely work for tomatoes.:lol: |
so very true Joseph. We here in usa can supplement soils, provide artificial time lights, but we cannot most likely provide the othes mentioned however scientific and biologic entities in Ukraine,such as [URL="http://http://ukrmap.su/en-g8/879.html"]http://http://ukrmap.su/en-g8/879.html[/URL]
which states: From Ukraine's history course you already know about one of the oldest cultures in Europe cultivation of land - farmer Trypillya culture, archaeologists at the open with. Tripoli (Kiev). Already in IV - The third millennium BCE. our ancestors settled in the lands of Right Bank Ukraine and grew up on them bread. Since agriculture, including farming became the core lifestyle old Ukrainian. Ukrainian peasant always treated respectfully land breastfeeding, loved and cherished her. Over the centuries it is viddyachuvala him bountiful harvest. When the early nineteenth century. under cultivation fell vast expanses of steppe black earth of Ukraine, she became the first “granary” Europe. Grown yields - the result of teamwork and human and nature. Important natural success factor has always been farming soil. For the territory of Ukraine characterized by diverse soil. Terms of soil. Soils formed in Ukraine result of interaction between different soil factors - parent rocks, natural waters, climate, topography, vegetation, of animals and microorganisms, the economic impact of man. Parent breeds (Background) is determined mineral composition, physical and chemical properties of soil. In Ukraine, such species are quaternary sediments - mostly sand and loess. They are to soil fall aerosol particles - clay and sand, and in mountainous areas added more debris - gravel and crushed stone. ClimateIncluding the ratio of heat and moisture affects the formation of different types of soil. Thus, in conditions of excessive waterlogged soil moisture is formed, which can be formed peaty layer and clay - gray stain zakysnyh iron compounds. Insufficient moisture causes the formation of saline soils: a place to surface moisture quickly evaporates, rises from the depths of water with dissolved salt. Impact climate on soil formation is also carried through vegetation. In warm and damp climates formed enough lush grass vegetation, after which the mortality of many forms of humus (humus). So to many herbaceous vegetation formed fertile soils. Conversely, in excessive dryness of the climate formed loose vegetation, humus produced little, and therefore will be less fertile soils or poor. AnimalsLiving in the soil (earthworms, moles), fluff it crushed and the remains of plants. Ultimately makes the remains of dead plants and animals on humus microorganisms (Various bacteria). They splitting the organic remains of minerals and chemical elements - Nitrogen, calcium, potassium, carbon, phosphorus, Sulfur and others. Only in this manner they can once again acquire the plant. In addition, humus and calcium sticking together another solid mineral particles in soil lumps of different sizes, among which water penetrates the soil and air. Human activities can improve soil fertility in terms of scientifically grounded its soil or its reduction as a result of unsustainable management. Important to improve soil quality is of organic and mineral fertilizers. The process of soil formation is very slowly. In temperate middle latitudes, where the Ukraine, fertile soil layer thickness 0,5 - 2 cm formed about 100 years. Fully formed the same ground has a capacity of 1 - 2 m and consists of several layers - the horizon. In terms of soil (soil profile) shows its layered structure. Amazing Ukraine Nondescript earthworms Probably you will not find another animal in the world that has played such a large role in nature. Army of underground pitmen 1 ha of soil is 130 thousand individuals total weight 400 kg. During the year they turn over more than 30 tons of earth. Charles Darwin, the nineteenth century. The main types of soil plains parts. In Ukraine formed different soils. Their distribution on the flat part is subordinated to the law pulse zoning (soil vary from north to south). Sod-podzol soils distributed mainly on Still alive. They were formed in conditions of excessive moisture in pine and mixed forests. Parent rock for them to serve as water-ice sandy sediments. These small soil humus content (up to 1,5%), clearly expressed by the so-called podzolic horizon from which nutrients are washed away deep down. Therefore they have low fertility. Gray forest soils common in the southern part of Polesie, the west and the Right Bank of Ukraine under wide-forest areas. They formed in loamy soils in sufficient moisture. The content of humus in them are also small - 3%, so their Natural fertility is low. Black soil formed on lesah in insufficient moisture in the steppe vegetation. Great humus content (8 - 15%) and granular structure and Clotted make them not only in the most fertile Ukraine, but in the world. Humus layer of the chernozem has considerable power - from 40 cm to 1 m or more. These soils, which cover nearly 65% of Ukraine is its national wealth. In Ukraine, fifth part of all black world. Different different parts of the country spread black subtypes: the forest - black ashed and typical, North of the steppe - ordinary black, in southern steppe - Southern black. A variety of subtypes and their properties caused by different zvolozhenistyu territory. In the dry steppe areas in low moisture and poor vegetation appeared chestnut soil. They have little humus content - 3%, but powerful enough humus - 55 cm For obtain high yields of crops, these soils require additional moisture. Besides the main zonal types of soils on the flat part of Ukraine on Polesie formed Swamp йpeat-swamp, and in river valleys - meadow йmeadow marsh. In the forest-steppe and some small spots distributed salt - Marginal soils, which traced the horizon of high content of salts. In the southern plains were formed Salt Flat-Barren soil with high salt content across its width. For growing plants such soils require irrigation and gypsuming. Because of intensive salt water flushing in the closed reduction of relief turn on maltIn which the salt layer disappears, but there are clay horizon Soils mountain. The mountains were formed as different types of soils that change according to law poyasnosti altitude - from the bottom to the top. В Ukrainian Carpathians the largest areas are brown. In Prykarpattya and at the foot of Transcarpathia common varieties brownsoil-podzolic soils. In the woods to a height of almost 1500 m above sea level formed a thin, schebenysti brown mountain-forest soils. Above, on the treeless hills, meadows and other mountain tops common mountain-meadow soils. У Crimean mountains in foothill areas and on the northern slopes to a height of 450 m distributed mountain-steppe soils - sod-carbonate та gray. Formed under shrub and herbaceous vegetation. Major soils of Mountain Crimea - as storm mountain-forestThat extended to a height of 850 m under beech, oak and mixed forests. In jajlah of meadow vegetation dominated mountain meadow chornozemovydni soils. On Southern Crimea, Where the climate is sub-tropical, with sufficient moistening prevail brown and red-brown soils. They are quite fertile: humus content is 4%. Records Ukraine The most fertile soils are not only in Ukraine but the world is black. Humus layer, which can reach 120 cm! Their fertility once said: "The Earth as good, that plant thill, then grow tarantas. Land resources. Earth used or can be used by man for its needs, create land resources country. All land in Ukraine, in fact, are such states. They are used in agriculture and forestry, they erected residential buildings and industrial facilities, transport routes are built. Part of land covered natural and artificial reservoirs, which are used in commercial purposes. About 70% of the land resources of Ukraine - is farmland, most of which concentrated in the fertile soils and very under cultivation. Arable land (or arable land) is 4 / 5 of the total area of agricultural land - is one of the highest in the world. Provision of per capita farmland of the country exceeds world and European indexes almost 2,5 times. The highest share of arable land steppe zone - about 90%. This allows you to develop a variety of industry agriculture. However, such high plowed land often leads to increased water and wind erosion soil - demolition fertile layer. The resulting ravines and beams, dust storms occur. Great cause bad damage to soil tillage, irrigation and unsystematic fertilization. Consequently, the soils are destroyed and depleted, reduced their fertility. For keeping soil in good condition should take various measures: plant trees and shrubs on the slopes of ravines, to stop their growth, the slopes of hills plow across to prevent flushing the soil surface waters, as irrigate land proved scientifically to make fertilizers. |
Blah,blahhhh blaaaaaaa
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Actually that is quite to the point. The Ukrainian "Black" soil is very similar to the heartland old tallgrass prairie soils found in the US. Basically the prime land that starts in parts of Indiana and encompasses most of Illinois Kansas etc.. of our corn belt and a small sliver even passes south through Oklahoma and into the "Texas blackland prairies" region. Very productive and characteristically with a black, extraordinarily deep, mollic epipedon. Quite rare in the rest of the world, and besides USA and Ukraine almost never seen except in local patches, especially that deep. Certain parts of the steppe are quite similar to our tallgrass prairies. It is [B]THE[/B] prime agricultural land, bar none. But it is in rapid decline due to conventional agricultural methods.
Here in Oklahoma most of it blew away in the wind during the dust bowl. But where you can find it, awesome for growing the tastiest tomatoes. |
How do you know Black Krim originated in Ukranian native soil and not in something someone bought at a Ukranian box store;) ?
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Store bought question...references and answers
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[IMG]http://http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Main_Page[/IMG]it is well known by Universities throughout the world that SEVRERAL varieties of HEIRLOOM tomatos originated in that area. Krim (or crim in some cases) originated in or very near Crimea Ukraine, which is almost an island now but was a well connected isthmus at one point in time.
Black Krim A very popular heirloom that originates from the Isle of Krim in the Black Sea off the coast of the Crimean Peninsula. This is one of the first heirloom tomatos and is largely responsible for black 'krim' heirloom tomatos today.Care MUST be taken to maintain the 'Heirloom' status because of cross pollination and interbreeding. Buy from RELIABLE sources. The medium to large size fruit are oblate and usually have numerous cracks around the stem end. The color varies according to the climate but generally the hotter the climate the darker the fruit. Indeterminate, regular leaf foliage. (85 days from transplant). |
Hi Caroline137,
Please help me. after having extreme success with the black crim, i decided to try to grow the 'Black from TULA' variety. Do you or anyone else have comparison info or experiance with this tomato? ALL info and input is appreciated. =Garden381,mike |
following is a partial BLACK TOMATO LIST copy and pasted[URL="http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Category:Black_Tomatoes"]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Category:Black_Tomatoes[/URL] from WIKI...
(Sungold x Juliet) x Black Cherry 1 1884 Purple A Adelaide Festival African Brown Aker's West Virginia Black Amazon Chocolate Ambrosia Giant Ananas Noire Ania Antho Violett Arbuznyi Aunt Ruby's German Black Cherry Austin's Black Cherry B Baby Russian Bear Creek Becker's Blaue Dolgener Beduin Berkeley Tie-Dye Heart Berkeley Tie-Dye, Pink Big Cheef Bill's Berkeley Pink BKX Black Black Aisberg Black Altai Black and Brown Boar Black and Red Boar Black Anna Black Bear Black Bell Black Brae Black Brandywine X Green Zebra F1 Black Brandywine, Regular Leaf Black Burgundy Black Cherry Black Cherry x Green Zebra Black Crimson Black Early Black Elephant Black Elephant, Regular Leaf Black Emperor Black Ethiopian Black from Tula Black from Tula Potato Leaf Black Krim Black Magic Black Mamba Black Master Black Mystery Black Opal Black Pearl F1 Black Plum Black Plum x Black Zebra Black Prince Black Prince X Cherokee Purple Black Roma Black Ruffled Black Russian Black Sea Man Black Tom Black Yum Yum Black Zebra Black Zebra Cherry Blackberry Blackstar Blaue Helarios Blaue Kasachstan B cont. Blue Blue Chocolate Blue Estland Blue Fruit Blue Ridge Black Blue Sky Blueberry Boar's Hoof Bordo Boronia Brad's Black Heart Brandywine, Black Brandywine, True Black Brazilian Beauty Brown Berry Brown Cherry Brown Derby Mix Brown Flesh Brown Flesh Jumbo Bundaberg Rumball C Cafe Bule Cappuccino Carbon Carol Chyko's Big Paste Black Chadds Ford Chernaya Vishnya Cherniy Gigant Chernoe Serdtse (a.k.a. Black Heart) Chernoe Yabloko Chernomor Chernomor Regular Leaf Cherny Mavr Chernyi Krim Chernyi Mamont Chernyi Mavr Cherokee Chocolate Cherokee Purple Cherokee Purple Heart Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf Cherokee Tiger Black Cherry, Black Striped Cherry, Black Sweet Chinese Purple Chocolate Chocolate Brown Chocolate Champion Chocolate Cherry Chocolate Lightning Chocolate Pear Chocolate Princess Chocolate Stripes Christmas Purple Grapes Chyornyi Slon Chyornyi Tarasenko Chyornyi Tulpan Cinnamon Pear Clario Purple Coeur de Surpriz Coffee Striped Cookie F1 Crème Brulee Cuban Black D D. B. Cooper Dana's Dusky Rose Dark Rose David De Barao Black D cont. De Berao Braun Despina Dice's Mystery Black Dwarf Purple Heart Dwarf Wild Fred E Efiop Evan's Purple Pear F Filipino 2 Fioletovyi Kruglyi Frankstein Black Fred's Tie Dye G Galatea Gary'O Sena GBT lines German Black Giant Fiolet Gold Stripes Golova Negra Grandma Oliver Chocolate Green Zebra x Black Cherry Grousha Tcheornaya Guernsey Island Gypsy H Haley's Purple Comet Harvard Square Heart's Delite Black Heaven's Joy Hector Honkin' Big Black Cherry Huge Black I Indian Dark Violet Beefsteak Indian Stripe Indian Stripe Plus Indigo Rose Indische Fleisch Italian Black Italienne Noire J Jack Johnson Japanese Trifele Black JD's Special C Tex Jeff's Purple Joffre K Kardinal Tchyornyi Kazachka Kiss The Sky Korichnevaya Sliva Korichnevyi Sakhar Korney's Cross Kozula 126 Czarny Lagodny Kozula 128 Fiolet Ciemny Kozula 129 Czarny Twardy Kozula 130 Fiolet Zebra Ciemna Kozula 138 Malinowa Zebra Krem-Brule Kumato L Large Barred Boar Large Black and Red Boar Lila Sari Lilac Lost Marbles M Madame Jardel's Black Maltitzer Braune Manchester Plum Marcia's Mystery Black Marina's Black Marizol Black |
[QUOTE=garden381;476793]Hi Caroline137,
Please help me. after having extreme success with the black crim, i decided to try to grow the 'Black from TULA' variety. Do you or anyone else have comparison info or experiance with this tomato? ALL info and input is appreciated. =Garden381,mike[/QUOTE] First let me speak to your post above. If you look at Tania's page for Black Krim she makes it very clear that Black Krim was first found IN the Ukraine, not on an Isle ofKrim. The fact that historically there was no seperation IMO is not relevant in terms of past changes of geography as it relates to tomato varieties, which originated in South America. You say that many Universiteis say that many different so called black varieties originated in the crimea but being one who is very interested in tomato histories, please name some b'c I don't off hand know of any other named ones. If you look at my post #4 in this thread you'll see that I noted that when I joined SSE in 1989 there were only 4 or 5 black varieties, and some of those came from Russians who came to Alaska from Siberia and brought seeds with them. No doubt there may havef been other black ones that could have been grown but had no names. I think what's important is that most folks would agree that the original mutations that led to black ones did occur in Russia, whether in the Ukraine or elsewhere isn't known. How I wish I could link to the study done assaying the 5 gf alleles that are associated with black ones, b'c it strongly suggests places of origin, but that study is no longer available sincee Hoouzz bought out GW. Yes, I have grown both Black Krim and black fromTula. Some so called blacks have a yellow epidermis as does black Krim and some have a clear epi such as black from Tula. Tania has this to say about the origin of Black from Tula. [url]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Black_from_Tula[/url] Tania suggests an origin in the Ukraine and then says possibly Tula, but Tula is now where's near theUkraine. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tula,_Russia[/url] I much prefer those so called blacks that have a clear epi, which I call pink/blacks as opposed to those that have a yellow epidemis which I call red/blacks. So I prefer ones with clear epis such as B from T, Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe and the like. In my heirloom tomato book I also listed, along with B from T Black krim, but listed it as Noire de crimee and while it should be the same as black Krim it wasn't viz fruits were darker, more productive and the taste was superior Noire was obtained from Norbert in France who contacted 4of us in the US and wanted to trade, we did, and this was one her sent in 1992. Finally, what I've noticed over several decades re tomato varieties is that while once stable, X pollinations and more subtle mutations alter what a variety should be. Since I've never thrown out any saved seeds since the late 80's both Tania and remy have asked if I have this one or that one b/c what they had wasnot right for the variety and ofcourse I always say sure if I dohave what they are looking for. Want to have some fun about the so called black ones? just go to Tania's website and pull up the B's and see how many are listed.:) Time is up for I have to go back to the front room and watch more tennis from the French Open.:) Carolyn |
crimea mountain conditions for the black 'krim' (crim) tomato. Note the limestone peaks and harsh conditions which are native to the sub-tropical nature of the low-lands and the cool pine forest with rich soil of the mountain forest.
Combined, these conditions show how varied the black krim as well as other 'black' tomatoes can withstand conditions. [url]https://youtu.be/xLsAJfKQIMM[/url] This video provided by cousin who visited, Rostyslav Konnov. |
Thanks much Caroline137.
First let me acknoledge the obvious. I appreciate the courtious and exceptionally informative reply. While i do my best to research information, my experiance and contact with others who do this professionally are non-existant. Infact ,this great website is the best info i have found to date as far as being able to communicate with others about this science. My info and referances are only from the state of ukrain, as well as a relitive whom works for the university, and another whom works for the university of Maribor , in slovenia - link to main site ([URL="http://maribor-pohorje.si/botanicni-vrt-univerze-v-mariboru-pivola.aspx"]http://maribor-pohorje.si/botanicni-vrt-univerze-v-mariboru-pivola.aspx[/URL] [URL="http://http://sorttest.by/chleny-upov"]http://http://sorttest.by/chleny-upov[/URL] (link to main site) happy french open,i've got this on the bigscreen! love it! Look forward to your expertise. Many thanks, Michael pivola,III |
[QUOTE=carolyn137;476809]First let me speak to your post above. If you look at Tania's page for Black Krim she makes it very clear that Black Krim was first found IN the Ukraine, not on an Isle of Krim. The fact that historically there was no separation IMO is not relevant in terms of past changes of geography as it relates to tomato varieties, which originated in South America.
[/QUOTE] I think really there are two main issues at hand. One would obviously be the origin of Black Krim. I think you are absolutely correct about it originating in Eastern Europe, probably Ukraine, or at least somewhere in the greater Eastern European/Russian agricultural belt. The second part though is less clear. We all know local conditions can change the quality of the tomatoes produced by any cultivar. Tops on that list of local conditions is the soil. So I think it is relevant to talk about the geography of Ukraine, especially as it relates to soil types and climate. Unfortunately though there are two problems with this approach. I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original location is really the ideal local conditions to grow the best tasting Black Krim tomatoes. It certainly is plausible, since there must have been some reason the Black Krim cultivar became popular and an heirloom. However, the mutation could have even happened elsewhere and only becoming popular once it reached those ideal soils. We do know with certainty soils can change the flavor of tomatoes grown in them. The Greater Ukraine area does have some particularly good soils, but also some not as fertile. So while less likely, it is possible Black Krim does slightly better in one of those less fertile soils too? Lastly, assuming both those issues above are in fact true, garden381 wanted to know how to recreate as closely as possible the ideal soil for Black Krim in Florida. That's really difficult. It used to be thought impossible to create a soil class by agricultural practises alone, short of simply importing in soil from the outside. Now it is known you can change your soil type in certain conditions. But not knowing for certain which soil type is ideal for Black Krim to begin with, it would be impossible to say if garden381 could do it in that part of Florida. I could give advise on how to create a mollic epipedon, assuming the soil there is not too sandy and has enough loess/silt/clay AND experiences at least some ground freeze events. (It's actually created under a grassland ecosystem, but can end up being forested later) But that doesn't happen in most of Florida. So I would think even if we could find out for sure, it might be impossible for garden381 to do it anyway, at least in our lifetimes. So the best advise is simply build the soil the best you can with mulches and compost, things like that. Or as some people have done, grow in containers. Then enjoy what you produce. It may not be ideal, but surely it must be better than a store-bought tomato.:yes: |
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[QUOTE=Redbaron;476831]I think really there are two main issues at hand. One would obviously be the origin of Black Krim. I think you are absolutely correct about it originating in Eastern Europe, probably Ukraine, or at least somewhere in the greater Eastern European/Russian agricultural belt.
The second part though is less clear. We all know local conditions can change the quality of the tomatoes produced by any cultivar. Tops on that list of local conditions is the soil. So I think it is relevant to talk about the geography of Ukraine, especially as it relates to soil types and climate. Unfortunately though there are two problems with this approach. I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original location is really the ideal local conditions to grow the best tasting Black Krim tomatoes. It certainly is plausible, since there must have been some reason the Black Krim cultivar became popular and an heirloom. However, the mutation could have even happened elsewhere and only becoming popular once it reached those ideal soils. We do know with certainty soils can change the flavor of tomatoes grown in them. The Greater Ukraine area does have some particularly good soils, but also some not as fertile. So while less likely, it is possible Black Krim does slightly better in one of those less fertile soils too? Lastly, assuming both those issues above are in fact true, garden381 wanted to know how to recreate as closely as possible the ideal soil for Black Krim in Florida. That's really difficult. It used to be thought impossible to create a soil class by agricultural practises alone, short of simply importing in soil from the outside. Now it is known you can change your soil type in certain conditions. But not knowing for certain which soil type is ideal for Black Krim to begin with, it would be impossible to say if garden381 could do it in that part of Florida. I could give advise on how to create a mollic epipedon, assuming the soil there is not too sandy and has enough loess/silt/clay AND experiences at least some ground freeze events. (It's actually created under a grassland ecosystem, but can end up being forested later) But that doesn't happen in most of Florida. So I would think even if we could find out for sure, it might be impossible for garden381 to do it anyway, at least in our lifetimes. So the best advise is simply build the soil the best you can with mulches and compost, things like that. Or as some people have done, grow in containers. Then enjoy what you produce. It may not be ideal, but surely it must be better than a store-bought tomato.:yes:[/QUOTE] Hi Redbaron, Thanks MUCH for your info. Understanding the overall of your message i agree totally with the issue of ORIGIN of the b'c. as pointed out by yourself and others in this thread as well. A bit of background on myself and previous growing conditions in my past experiance. I grew up in South Florida and raised various cultivars in that climate for almost 20 years. It overall produces a generally thicker skin on most varieties which I have grown there. Native soil in south florida is, near the coast, 'hawthorn'-a composite of limestone,coral, some organic matter and course sand. Mostly unwelcomed for ground planting in Pompano Beach where i lived. Pervious to that i lived in Sunrise florida-about 15 miles inland where the soil conditions were mainly light sand, everglades peat, and limestone fragmented all having a water table of 24 inches. Here i had FANTASTIC success with 'Brandywine'. The skins were thick however due to the sunlight and 85+ temperature in the shade. Now, I have moved to NORTH florida where it is much cooler and has a different soil make up. Here, i live on a grassy preserve off the arlington river. windy conditions, heavy rain at times, soil is medium sand, some organic dark matter , clay and silt. water table at 6 feet in my location. my ph here ranges from 5.9 to 6.5 in my sloping 1250 sq.ft.garden. it slopes toward the water so i am ONLY organic-not wanting to add chemicals to the waterway and grassland. the coldest i have seen it here was 26 degrees but only for about 2-3 weeks. i explain this because i notice a such difference in the QUALITY of the tomatoes and wish to combine my overall soil content from all other locations forming a potentially better soil containing at least some of the geological elements. Fortunately, for myself, i have access to native soils from south florida, which i have on my properties and can incorporate the qualities on my current plot although it will be in a raised bed due to the volume i would need to fill the entire garden. My overall goal is simply to produce exceptional quantities of the black krim per plant ORGANICALLY which maintains QUALITY and SIZE combined. photo 1 is Pompano beach florida-previous residence photo 2 is current location in Jacksonville florida (photo distorted slightly from resize);) |
I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original
&&&&& And there's nothing to say that the first mutation led to a named variety, Black Krim, even happened. maybe better to say that a mutation or mutations happened somewhere in the former Russian territories. I'm not wed to mentioing just the crimean region when I look at all the territories that Russia once controlled and those mutation(s) could have happened anywhere from the Baltic states to Crimea to Bulgaria, to Ukraine, to Moldova to even Siberia, from which many tomato varieties have come since it's NOT all cold and brutal in all areas there. The same kinf of discussion here is also the same as to where the gold/red bicolors originated from and that's pretty clear since it was immigrants to the US that brought seeds with them that were from certain regions in Europe/ There were many Russian immigrants that also came to the US as far back as the early to mid 1800's and it might be intersting if someone were to look into that as well. Carolyn, who is less interested in soil stratigraphy than she is in specific origins of tomato varieties/ Different tomato varieties/types have adapted to different soil structures since they first came from the high semi-temperate plains of Chile and Peru/ |
black krim from 5 30 2015; plant with question
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Hi enjoy one of my krims from today in exchange for an idea of what on earth this small plant may be.
I bought a 'cossal bell pepper PLANT from Gurneys and the pepper died. later,because i did not remove the pepper, i found this growing from the rootball. I do not plant seed directly into garden, so i could not have dropped it. notice the leaves. Strange to me PL tomato but blooms appear to be set up like some cherry type. all ideas welcomed thanks:D |
I would like to clarify some local moments as far I was born in Soviet Union and have Ukrainian, Russian and Polish roots.
Ukraine is different. It was very rich in super prolific black soils many years ago, but it means nothing as for origin of black or any other tomato type or color! More to say they have been loosing many of these wonderful soils since World War II when so many wagons with chernozem has been taken to Germany by fashists. These days it looks like they have the same tendency - they sell their remaining rich black soils abroad (tehre is a huge black market for this), because there is a wild anarchy in Ukraine since 2014 Revolution. There is no real laws, the power of nationalists and Nazi and so many poor people... Back to Black Krim and the Crimean Penninsula. It has been gifted as a toy to Ukraine by native Ukrainian head of Communist Party of USSR Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 after so many years being part of Russian Empire/Russian Federation inside Soviet Union since 1783 when Russian Empire has won it during Russian-Turkey (Russian Empire-Ottoman Empire) war. Crazy Nikita has just wanted to make a present to his native Soviet Republic of Ukraine:) There was no disputes, because all this was happen inside one big country Soviet Union. Krim is a great place as for nature, flora or fauna, but you can't say it for sure there can be a birth place of black tomatoes. But there are so many black tomato varieties came from Russia, including Black from Tula. Tula is an old Russian city about 200 km away from Moscow. It is famous of its traditional Russian gingerbread "pryanik", old traditional Samovar - a heated metal container traditionally used to heat and boil water in Russia for tea. Marina Danilenko from Moscow has sent its seeds to USA. I've been to Tula city for 4 times for business in 2009-2012 and have no idea it is a motherland of black tomatoes. But they have a lot of traditional Russian black varieties at the local farmer's market. There was Black Prince everythere, because it is the most popular black tomato variety in Russia and CIS. [IMG]http://dachka-ogorodik.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/cherny-princ.jpg[/IMG] So I can't say for sure where are they came from (mutation or breeding or a gift from space aliens:D), but we know and really love these Russian black tomato varieties: Black Krim, Black from Tula, Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince), Yaponskiy Tryufel Chyornyi (=Japanese Black Trifele) from Biotechnika seed company,St.Peterburg; Chyornyi Slon (=Black Elephant) from Moscow seed company Gisok; Chyornyi Mavr (=Black Mavr), Paul Robeson, Indira Gandhi, Kazachka, Chyornyi Baron (=Black Baron), Chernomor (=Black Sea Man) from VNIISOK, Black Russian, Dikovinka and many others... And I'm proud I'm Russian;) |
[I]"And I'm proud I'm Russian;)"
[/I] As you should be! Thank you for all the background information. It is interesting to learn about what is going on in Eastern Europe, especially since, during the time of the former Soviet Union, we got very little information. For the origin of black tomatoes, I like the space alien theory.:lol: Nan |
Is the picture of Black Prince? I loved black tomatoes.
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Yes, it is, Maya. This is a Chyornyi Prince (aka Black Prince in English).
[QUOTE=mayax68;688753]Is the picture of Black Prince? I loved black tomatoes.[/QUOTE] |
Aha, i know that I was not dreaming up the memory of having eaten black tomatoes as a kid. My grandma used to garden when we were leaving in a one family house many many years ago. I must be remembering them from the time i was four. My parents, on the other hand claim that they saw a black tomato for the first time in their lives when i grew it. :).
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Maya, you are right - red colored tomato varieties had been dominant in USSR times even in amateur gardens.
Yellow or pink tomato varieties were very rare even in 1980s and there was no opportunity to buy seeds of such varieties in any shops before early 1990s. Amateur gardeners from the Central part of USSR have been trading seeds by post within Soviet Union including South of Russian Soviet Republic, Ukrainian Republic, Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and some other Southern Republics or seed exchange with neighboors near your dacha. There were many amateur seed breeders since 1970s since Soviet people get more dachas outside major cities and small towns. There were some other places to get more seeds: 1. From collective farms (kolkhoz) where they sometimes tested new varieties and kolkhoz staff usually took some seeds to grow at their dachas. 2. From VIR Institute staff where there has been a huge seed collection from the whole world and they still maintain it in 2018. 3. From other Soviet agricultural Institutes and Stations which took part in seed exchange within Warsaw Pact countries. 4. From Soviet militarymen families lived in East Germany (like our family), Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Cuba, some African coutries and some other countries with military bases and staff. As for black tomato varieties there was a Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince) which became popular in the main Central part of Soviet Union and then CIS since 1980s everywhere and then other black tomato varieties had became popular. But I have no info about Soviet South including Krim, Kuban and all -Stans. |
[QUOTE=Andrey_BY;687314]I would like to clarify some local moments as far I was born in Soviet Union and have Ukrainian, Russian and Polish roots.
Ukraine is different. It was very rich in super prolific black soils many years ago, but it means nothing as for origin of black or any other tomato type or color! More to say they have been loosing many of these wonderful soils since World War II when so many wagons with chernozem has been taken to Germany by fashists. Back to Black Krim and the Crimean Penninsula. It has been gifted to Ukraine by native Ukrainian head of Communist Party of USSR Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 after so many years being part of Russian Empire since 1783 when Russians won it during Russian-Turkey (Russian Empire-Ottoman Empire) war. Krim is a great place as for nature, flora or fauna, but you can't say it for sure there can be a birth place of black tomatoes. But there are so many black tomato varieties came from Russia, including Black from Tula. Tula is an old Russian city about 200 km away from Moscow. It is famous of its traditional Russian gingerbread "pryanik", old traditional Samovar - a heated metal container traditionally used to heat and boil water in Russia for tea. Marina Danilenko from Moscow has sent its seeds to USA. I've been to Tula city for 4 times for business in 2009-2012 and have no idea it is a motherland of black tomatoes. But they have a lot of traditional Russian black varieties at the local farmer's market. There was Black Prince everythere, because it is the most popular black tomato variety in Russia and CIS. [IMG]http://dachka-ogorodik.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/cherny-princ.jpg[/IMG] So I can't say for sure where are they came from (mutation or breeding or a gift from space aliens:D), but we know and really love these Russian black tomato varieties: Black Krim, Black from Tula, Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince), Yaponskiy Tryufel Chyornyi (=Japanese Black Trifele) from Biotechnika seed company,St.Peterburg; Chyornyi Slon (=Black Elephant) from Moscow seed company Gisok; Chyornyi Mavr (=Black Mavr), Paul Robeson, Indira Gandhi, Kazachka, Chyornyi Baron (=Black Baron), Chernomor (=Black Sea Man) from VNIISOK, Black Russian, Dikovinka and many others... [/QUOTE] Sorry, just saved again old reply |
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