Can actinovate stunt seedling growth?
 

First off, let me say that I use Actinovate regularly, love the product, and recommend it to others all the time. I am not condemning it in any way.

On to the topic at hand. I typically water my seedlings with SeaCom PGR, fish fertilizer, and some EM1 bacteria mixed in and this works quite well. This year, on a few of the seeds that were started later than others, I added in some actinovate into the mix I just described and have been watering the seedlings with it. The seedlings that received this treatment have basically stopped growing and the leaves have become purple (the tops are purple, not the bottoms which could indicate phosphorous deficiency).

My question is, could actinovate have cultivated the young seedlings roots so well that it may be inhibiting nutrient uptake? I should have used the actinovate at reduced rates but did the regular 1tsp/2gallons. Any thoughts?

I can't say about actinovate specifically, but I can say that as a general rule, it is very common for a slight delay right at the beginning when using various organic methods that include various micro-organisms. That purple is also very common. They should grow out of it fairly quickly. I see the purple as a good thing. It is a sign that plants are producing hardy growth instead of luxurious, but easily killed growth.

Most cases it is a symbiotic relationship. That means right at first the micro-organisms colonize the plants and the plants actually are responsible for feeding themselves AND the micro-organisms. Later the beneficial micro-organisms repay that debt by supply the plant what it needs. So what you described is actually a common occurrence. It is also why most people start seeds in sterile soil-less potting mixes, and don't add micro-organisms until the seedlings are larger and more well developed. There are others though that start them right off from the beginning with beneficial micro-organisms.

I guess it is up to you to figure out what works best for you long term. One bit of advise though; either start them right off from seed with the micros, or wait till they are very well developed to do it. The middle ground of doing it when the seedlings are small is the worst option. I personally wait until a week before I start hardening them off for going in the garden. Then I hit them one more time as I transplant.

Yep, there is natural competition between plants and microbes for nutrients, especially in a newly introduced growing colony. Bacteria are greedy little buggers and hoard great quantities of nutrients in the soil especially Nitrogen which they are the primary sinks for in soil. That's a good thing since that prevents nutrient leaching. When they themselves die or consumed by predators, that cycles nutrients back in the soil in plant available forms.

You don't need to add a lot of bacteria to a pot with a seedling, one small application is enough, they multiply rapidly. Adding to much just creates too many bacteria competing for too little resources. If you add EM's at seed germination, it's better to introduce a broad spectrum of species instead of one. That way you don't have one species dominating and the seedling gets the benefits of the various growth promoting metabolites the different critters produce.

So was this a one time application to established seedlings? How old are the seedlings?

Ami

I've never experienced that with actinovate.

I don't recall the exact age of the seedlings since these seeds were started later than my main batch but I think they were around 3 weeks old. They were primarily peppers (although some tomatoes show similar signs) and were about 2" tall at the time.

The ones that show it the worst still have purple leaves and have all but stopped growing. They have probably put on 1/4 inch in height in the last 3 weeks since this was done. Very slow growth rate.

OK, I see why you think it's a nutrient uptake issue. purple leaves and all. Some pepper varieties are very slow growing for me no matter what I do until the are transplanted to there final home. Tomatoes never give me a problem.
Purple stems on pepper seedlings are normal, purpled cots are normal for some varieties, purpled true leaves are only an issue when the soil temperature is too low.

I inoculated all early only once with BiotaMax and then AZOS a week so later I think, no negative effects there. Also watered in some compost tea later on, a week before potting up.
I haven't used Actinovate in the mix until the full root dip at transplant, but I don't see why Actinovate would effect very young seedlings in any negative way unless there is some severe competition for nutrients. You said you used EM1 bacteria, that's the TeraGanix product?

Ray, yup I used the EM1 mix by Teraganix along with the actinovate. I think the two combined are just outcompeting the plants for nutrients. That's the only explanation I have. Never had seedlings just shut down growth this early on and adding the actinovate and EM1 is the only change I have made from previous years.

I normally inoculate plants later on at plant out (using a dip method similar to the one Ami has described on this board) and that has worked well for me, but like mentioned I started using the actin/EM1 way earlier on these plants that are struggling.

I agree, if the only difference was EM1 + Actinovate, then the simplest explanation is there is some interaction between the critters at least in the constraint of pot culture that we don't fully understand that is effecting plant growth.

I think I am going to hit them with a shot of inorganic fertilizer to see if I can wake them up. If that doesn't work then I'm probably out of luck.

It would be interesting to know the PH of the medium. EM-1 contains 4 species of Lactobacillus. They produce lactic acid. Could the introduction of Streptomyces Lydicus cause them to somehow create more acidic conditions than normal? if the PH was low enough, that would account for the stunting and purple leaves. What made me think of this is this [URL="http://infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF%20KNF%20Conf%20Data/C5-10-201.pdf"]experiment in Japan[/URL] and the problems with culturing Lactobacillus plantarum and Streptomyces Griseus together.
Inorganic fertilizer may have no effect if the PH of the soil is too low or may make it worse. If the PH is very low, then increasing the PH would correct the problems with the seedlings.

Good thought Ray. I did end up using an inorganic fertilizer on a few of the ones I could spare. If they die or just aren't saved, it won't be the end of the world.

I'll see if I can get the pH of the soil tested but at the moment don't have a means to do so. May as well get it though -- seems like a wise thing to have.

Just an update. You hit the nail on the head, Ray. pH of the soil in the stunted seedlings peat pots was 4.5. Then I added some ground eggshells that had been simmering in water to the soil mixture and the pH jumped up substantially. So I went ahead and poured some of the eggshell & water mixture onto a few of the seedlings to see what happens. If they make progress, I'll do the same with the others.

Lesson learned. More beneficial bacteria is not necessarily better. Don't mix actinovate and EM1 with young seedlings.

Admittedly I am taking a stab in the dark with how much eggshell (calcium carbonate, aka lime) I am adding to each seedling but I'd rather experiment and see what happens than just let them die off.

Wow! PH 4.5, that's amazing. Did you check the PH of the EM-1 only inoculated pots? I guess those Lactobacillus really don't like strong competitors in the confines of a pot culture. According to Natural Industries, Streptomyces Lydicus can survive a PH as low as 4.0, but are only active at PH 5.0-9.1. Those Lactobacillus basically put Streptomyces Lydicus to sleep. Now I wonder if your human intervention to drive the PH back up would bring Streptomyces Lydicus out of dormancy and cause the Lactobacillus to try to lower the PH below 5.0 again? You might be a player in a microbial tug-o-war.:?:

I didn't check the EM1 only pots since they are all in the ground and growing well, but it would definitely be interesting. If there is a microbial tug-of-war as you say, I am hoping the actinovate (s. lydicus) wins out! I won't be adding any more EM1 to any of the beds where I used actinovate (I've had good success with it) just in case.

This has me thinking...I just started indoor bokashi composting which uses EM1 as the inoculant. Since I apply actinovate to the roots and as a foliar spray, should I avoid using the diluted bokashi juice (the run-off that occurs during the fermentation period) as a foliar spray? Could these two microbes compete with one another on foliage even though that isn't in the soil?:?

Thanks for sticking with the thread RayR. I know there are many others use who beneficial microbes, mycos, etc. on this forum. All input is welcome!

All good questions, probably would make a microbiologist say hmmmm?
All I know is microbial competition for real estate and food sources is normal in nature, but what happens in a laboratory brew or a petri dish, a pot culture, compost tea, on leaf surfaces or a garden bed can be very different. In healthy soil there is a vast number of different species of bacteria, archea, algae, fungi, yeasts and higher predators like protozoa, nematodes, mites and other critters. Things tend to sort themselves out there, everybody has their niche and survives but no one group of species dominates. Various species of Lactobacillus and Streptomyces exist together in natural soils without any problem I'm aware of, but it looks like when you put them in a confined environment together things can get ugly.

How they interact above ground on leaf surfaces is a good question. Leaves and stems are a tough neighborhood for microbes, first thing is whether they are UV tolerant or not, only UV tolerant species can withstand the UV radiation from sunlight, everybody else is dead meat.
Just quickly looking for info on Lactobacillus species, it appears some are UV tolerant and some are not. Some have been isolated from leaf surfaces. Where those species that you are culturing in bokashi from EM-1 fit in, I don't know. I think we would have to look into that.

I found this bit of information by Dr. Elaine Ingham in the [URL="http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/message/27302"]Yahoo Compost Teas, The Soil Food Web & Soils group[/URL] that further supports what happened to the PH.

[QUOTE]When dealing with the lactobacilli, you are setting the stage for a very
different set of processes than when you allow the run-of-the-mill
putrefactive anaerobes to proliferate.

Lactobacillus species establish a particular set of conditions that
prevent the growth of other organisms. Lactobacilli work to reach a
particular pH by releasing certain organic acids. They also control
nutrient availability and thus prevent the growth of bacteria like E.
coli and other human pathogens.[/QUOTE]

Great find! Dr. Ingham has really done some great work - too bad I wish she was wrong here :) Definitely a lesson learned.

As for my plants, the ones that received the calcium do look a little better but I it seems too early to tell. I have a number of plants (most all of them are in the ground at this point) that are basically just not growing (all hit with EM1 previously), and I'm not sure what to do. The pH raising solutions that you buy in the store are not something I want to use -- they are fairly heavy duty chemicals that I try to avoid but if it meant life or death for the plants, I would use them. Any suggestions? Could I 'override' the EM1 with a second drench of actinovate? Do I stick with calcium and cross my fingers?

I don't mind experimenting and possibly losing a few plants but this year I am growing for some other people who fully expect their plants to produce.

I can't say for sure, because I don't have your problem, so I never tried to fix your specific problem first hand.

BUT you can try this general technique I use when something I can't identify is causing my plants to just "sit there". Find a spot on your lawn with plenty of clover. Mow it but leave the clippings spread out to dry a day like a farmer dries hay.

Next day or even late the same day, rake it up and put it in a burlap bag (or other cloth like a pillow case). Put it in a wheel barrow and spray the bag with a hose till the wheel barrow is about 1/2 full of water.

If you did it right, the water should be green. Dunk and squeeze the bag like you would a giant tea bag making "sun tea". Use that water to foliage spray and water your plants.....while it is still fresh.

This should give your plants enough of a boost they can grow out of their blahs. Unless there is something more serious going on you haven't noticed or mentioned.

[QUOTE=Siberian;352318]Great find! Dr. Ingham has really done some great work - too bad I wish she was wrong here :) Definitely a lesson learned.

As for my plants, the ones that received the calcium do look a little better but I it seems too early to tell. I have a number of plants (most all of them are in the ground at this point) that are basically just not growing (all hit with EM1 previously), and I'm not sure what to do. The pH raising solutions that you buy in the store are not something I want to use -- they are fairly heavy duty chemicals that I try to avoid but if it meant life or death for the plants, I would use them. Any suggestions? Could I 'override' the EM1 with a second drench of actinovate? Do I stick with calcium and cross my fingers?

I don't mind experimenting and possibly losing a few plants but this year I am growing for some other people who fully expect their plants to produce.[/QUOTE]

Have you contacted Teraganix and explained what you did? They may be able to give you some insight into what steps to take. You really stumbled into unknown territory here with the combo of EM-1 and Actinovate.
There is no way of knowing if your attempts at raising the PH helps unless you monitor the PH and any changes in plant growth over at least a period of 2 weeks. A second drench of Actinovate could be like pouring gasoline on a fire too, so I would be leery of trying that without some professional advise.

Yup, I have an email in with the Teraganix folks (they are closed on saturdays) as well as with Boomer from Natural Industries (makers of Actinovate). Just wanted to see if anyone else had any suggestions.

In the meantime I am foliar feeding the plants with both kelp and fish in the hopes they can get some nutrients that way. I'll keep this updated for those interested.

In case anyone is still following... The Teraganix folks are wonderful. After numerous emails to a gentleman named Eric, I learned I was applying EM1 at wayyy to strong of a rate. For greenhouse/nursery growing (aka for young seedlings), the recommended amount is 1/7oz per gallon whereas I was applying at no less than 1/2 and up to 1 full oz per gallon.

They also made mention of using activated EM1 rather than the regular EM1 though I'm not sure what difference it makes. Also I started my seedlings in peat and potted them up to a peat-based mix which tends to be acidic.

All in all, they recommended flushing really well (2-3x longer than the usual watering) then at the following watering adding 3 tbsp lime and 1 tbsp activated EM1 to every 1.5 gallons of water and watering fully. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

[QUOTE=Siberian;353174] I'll give it a shot and see what happens.[/QUOTE]

Or you could try what I recommended. ;)

Anyway, I am glad you figured out the issue. Seems at the very least you will not repeat that mistake, and others following the thread might escape the same problem.:yes:

[QUOTE=Siberian;353174]In case anyone is still following... The Teraganix folks are wonderful. After numerous emails to a gentleman named Eric, I learned I was applying EM1 at wayyy to strong of a rate. For greenhouse/nursery growing (aka for young seedlings), the recommended amount is 1/7oz per gallon whereas I was applying at no less than 1/2 and up to 1 full oz per gallon.

They also made mention of using activated EM1 rather than the regular EM1 though I'm not sure what difference it makes. Also I started my seedlings in peat and potted them up to a peat-based mix which tends to be acidic.

All in all, they recommended flushing really well (2-3x longer than the usual watering) then at the following watering adding 3 tbsp lime and 1 tbsp activated EM1 to every 1.5 gallons of water and watering fully. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.[/QUOTE]

What Eric is talking about is [URL="http://www.teraganix.com/Activated-EM-1-s/261.htm"]this[/URL]. Since EM-1 is only sold as dormant spores, you have to brew your own live culture. You were inoculating with a concentrated spore mass at a super high concentration. I think when all those babies woke up they were super hungry and aggressive in that small space they were trapped in.
Flushing is a good idea, I was thinking earlier that I would have just bare rooted the seedlings and potted them up in fresh soil.


[QUOTE=Redbaron;353180]Or you could try what I recommended. ;)

Anyway, I am glad you figured out the issue. Seems at the very least you will not repeat that mistake, and others following the thread might escape the same problem.:yes:[/QUOTE]

OK Redbaron, You've got me curious now, how would your botanical solution solve this microbial problem?

[QUOTE=RayR;353188]What Eric is talking about is [URL="http://www.teraganix.com/Activated-EM-1-s/261.htm"]this[/URL]. Since EM-1 is only sold as dormant spores, you have to brew your own live culture. You were inoculating with a concentrated spore mass at a super high concentration. I think when all those babies woke up they were super hungry and aggressive in that small space they were trapped in.
Flushing is a good idea, I was thinking earlier that I would have just bare rooted the seedlings and potted them up in fresh soil.




OK Redbaron, You've got me curious now, how would your botanical solution solve this microbial problem?[/QUOTE]
Simple. First is the flushing effect mentioned above. Next is the nutrients in the solution. The whole idea of a symbiotic relationship created by microbes is the microbes need fed first, and later pay back that debt. Since he used too high a concentrate, there were too many and overwhelmed the small plants. So the fresh "tea" both flushes AND feeds them while at the same time getting to the plant what it needs to "jump start" growth again. Time for the microbial life to repay that debt! ;) I am pretty sure it will work. Not certain, as I stated earlier, but pretty sure.;)

[QUOTE=RayR;353188]What Eric is talking about is [URL="http://www.teraganix.com/Activated-EM-1-s/261.htm"]this[/URL].[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I am familiar with activated EM1 and have done this process myself but what I was saying was I'm not sure why he recommended use of the activated versus regular versions. No big deal though, I'll just go with activated from now on.

But since you brought it up, it would be news to me that EM1 as it is sold is 'concentrated' and needs to go through the activation to wake it up. I had thought the activation was simply 'extending' the solution in that you give the microbes in the EM1 some extra food (sugar) and they multiple to make more of it for you (and not necessarily just come out of dormancy). I've used EM1 as is (not activated) and the microbes seemed pretty alive based on the effect they have had. This thread shows what I know though :)

And RedBaron, I wasn't ignoring your post and I do thank you for it. I know for a fact this is at least partially a pH issue, so my first order of business is to raise that pH and then I will use your solution.

I need to correct myself since Lactobacillus don't form spores, they only reproduce by binary fission, but still in the bottle they have to be kept in a more dormant state where they won't be reproducing and fermenting sugars. Dormancy is still alive but in a very low metabolic state. If they were fully active, the bottle would eventually explode from gas buildup from fermentation. EM-1 also contains Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Brewer's Yeast) which is another critter that gives off gas when active. I'm guessing they do that by limiting the food supply. Most bacteria just go in a dormant state when food is limited and they don't reproduce by binary fission for the same reason. Lactobacillus are facultative anaerobes and reproduce best when oxygen levels are low and there is plentiful carbohydrates available, the reason for the activation process. According to Teraganix, activation can expand the population 22 times, so I can see you can produce a lot more than what comes in the bottle. There must be some difference in the behavior of the well fed activated culture when released in the soil and what comes straight from the bottle. Good question for Eric.

Just an update. Most plants have been hit with some form of calcium carbonate aka lime. There's a couple that seem to be doing better, but most are just kind of sitting there. Makes me wonder if the bacteria are just driving the pH back down after the liming. A few plants (that were not touched with calcium or any other treatment) seem to be 'breaking through' as they are greening up and showing noticeable growth. Alas, most are just sitting there still.

Any thoughts on feeding the bacteria with some molasses in the hopes that them being fed will then encourage them to 'repay' their debt to the plant via increased nutrient absorption. It may just lead to the bacteria reproducing which would make the problem worse, but I may try on a couple plants.

Could anything be more frustrating than plants stopping their growth while otherwise looking healthy?!?

Won't feeding the Lactobacillus carbs just make them multiply faster and probably tie up more Nitrogen? I really don't know how well they reproduce in aerobic conditions, but it's a common warning about adding too much sugars in soil unless you are trying to moderate excessive N. Bacteria are the primary sinks for N in soil and they are greedy, they don't pay back in N until they die, eaten by predators. So too much carbs will encourage a greater bacterial population and more N will be tied up as a result.
I do understand that one of the benefits of Lactobacillus is the lactic acid they produce plays a role in phosphate solubilization, making more P available to the plant. How the other species in EM-1 benefit the plant I even know less about.:dizzy:

You're probably right Ray. I'm just kind of grasping at straws here. Not sure what else to do to get everything growing.

My only other thought was use a root stimulant of some sort in the hopes that some of the new roots that grow (if any can/do) won't be so heavily colonized by the bacteria and therefore more able to take up nitrogen. Not a very scientific approach, I know, but like said this is uncharted territory for me.