Expectations
 

Last year I crossed a potato leaf Early Girl with a PL Black Krim. I expected to get all PL and I did, (7 plants) but I am wondering if I am correct with thoughts here, and what are chances of getting a RL. For leaf selection, does it depend on the parents of EG, or since I used a recessive is it a done deal. I also assume taste will vary a lot though?
Anyway, I am trying to wrap my head around segregation in F1's when a hybrid is used.
Thanks, Mark

pl X pl = 100% pl

Variation will be very low in this generation because it is an F1 hybrid. All plants should be potato leaf. Save selfed seed from plants this year and the F2 plants you grow will show every shade of variation from black to red and every flavor variation possible in the parent genetics.

Thanks for clarifying that, I was not sure if I was correct when a F1 hybrid was one of the parents.

Since Early Girl F1 is PL both its parents must be too. I have no idea what else will be segregating in Early Girl genetics, depends how close the parents are, but there will be some segregation. Maybe for flavor, maybe for disease resistance, maybe for any number of traits. Always a good idea to grow several F1's when one or more of the parents is an F1, you will have quite a bit of segregation in the F1 of this cross, although not much of it will be obvious at this stage.

Edit: to put it another way, the half of the genetic information inherited from the stable parent will be the same in all F1's, but the half of the genetic information inherited from the F1 hybrid will be segregating like an F2 would.

I have found I get a PL Early Girl in about 1-200 seedlings, they are usually RL, and RL is dominant, so one parent of EG is PL somewhere in its lineage. Black Krim rarely throws a PL too, so I mixed the two PL's together, and here we are. These facts are why I posed this question, because they are 99 percent RL strains and one is a hybrid.

OK, sorry, my mistake. From the statement in the first post of the thread I thought that Early Girl F1 was PL and that you were using a PL version of Black Krim. I see now that you used off-types from both parents with unknown stability and unknown filial generation, but both potato leaf.

The PL trait will be present and fixed in the new F1, as you observed, since it is a recessive trait on both sides of the cross. Best practice would be to treat the F1 the same way as you would an F2 from a cross of stable varieties, and grow out to maturity several plants in order to compare.

A PL Early Girl may indicate a self pollinated seed from the parental mother, if indeed the mother is PL.

A PL Black Krim must be a result of an outcross somewhere down the line. I initially thought you were referring to a stabilised PL version of it, but I was wrong and you found an off type in a population of RL Black Krim plants.

The main point of my previous post remains the same; if one or the other of the parents is not stable then the F1 of the new cross will show segregation.

MAF, what AKMark says is correct. I used to peruse flats of Early Girl F1 in local nurseries looking for PL plants. I usually found one or two every year, nestled in amongst the true RL F1 Early Girls.

When I grew out the PL plants, they produced nearly identical fruit, but the plants were a bit more "floppy" than the true RL hybrid plants. I assumed at the time that someone erroneously harvested self-pollinated fruit from among the same plants used as seed plants for the proper cross. You know, picking an occasional "untagged" tomato somewhere in Southeast Asia.

Here's a small fruited example of "Early Girl PL" I found.
[URL="http://s65.photobucket.com/user/PapaVic1948/media/MVC-005S-2.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/PapaVic1948/MVC-005S-2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL="http://s65.photobucket.com/user/PapaVic1948/media/MVC-008S-3.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/PapaVic1948/MVC-008S-3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I'm going to say that tomato was grown in 2006 from a plant I found in a flat of otherwise regular leaf Early Girl transplants at a farm supply store.


Here are tomatoes from two different plants, one plant was an "Early Girl PL" I found at a local nursery shown next to tomatoes and leaves from a true Early Girl F1 hybrid plant I bought at the same nursery from the same batch of transplants (I think these were grown probably in 2007).

[URL="http://s65.photobucket.com/user/PapaVic1948/media/MVC-021S-3.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/PapaVic1948/MVC-021S-3.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I think this clearly shows wrong seed (self-pollinated) from the female breeding line used to produce F1 Early Girl seed. I figure the female breeding line is very similar to Bloody Butcher or Matina.

Thanks Travis, that is interesting.

For AKMark's cross there is a very strong possibility then that the PL Early Girl is essentially the "Mother of Early Girl" breeding line.

[QUOTE=maf;449103]Thanks Travis, that is interesting.

For AKMark's cross there is a very strong possibility then that the PL Early Girl is essentially the "Mother of Early Girl" breeding line.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-30530.html[/url]

Above is a thread from idig about PR-37 which might help.

I was going to link to my complete search but forgot to do so.

Gordon Gumbo in the above thread is Travis.

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn, interesting reading, and i must say good to see you back :D

I have had inside knowledge of quite a few parent stocks used in making F-1 hybrids over the last 40 years. Potato leaf female lines were starting to be the norm and many times when I selfed the hybrids I found proof of the alleged or given parent(s). Early Cascade is another line has a female potato leaf parent. I will likely go to my grave with pedigree data since I don't want to disclose proprietary info.

I am really surprised how early these plants are producing tomatoes, they are piling on tomatoes. I also have several EG plants the same age which have very few tomatoes, I just thought that was odd. They are all beefsteak shaped too, so far that is.

Other expectations fell short. The F2's of my Cowlick's x Bloody Butcher cross are not quite as early as the F1, all 10 plants, so I am going to reinsert the f1 cross back into the f2 to try and recapture the early trait. Does this make sense? I also have a Bloody Butcher x Dester F1 that is extremely vigorous and early, I am considering crossing it into the f2 of Cowlick's x BB. Does this make sense, since half the pedigree is BB which is the early trait connection here?
I also will just choose seeds from the Cowlick's x BB f2, then will see how everything falls before I start segregation. I do plan on growing out many examples of each attempt so I have a decent chance to find an early beefsteak-ish type of tomato that taste good. Yeah right! lol
I really liked the f1 last year from this cross, it threw a few beefsteak looking 8 ounce tomatoes, but most are round and about 4 ounces, not sweet, but very tomatoey.
I am new to the world of attempting the breeding of tomatoes, so everyday is a learning experience, and it is fun.
Thanks for the thoughts and clarifications

recessive x recessive is why my kids are blue eyed like mom and dad. Had they come out with dark eyes I'd be on Maury.

tomatoes
 

The PL Black Krim x PL Early Girl threw bright red tomatoes up to a pound, they taste like EG, with a slightly softer texture, cosmetics are tops.
The f2's should be interesting to sort through. Thanks for the input.

Tomato
 

I have a few projects I am tinkering with, but this may just be my fav so far. This is an F3 of my Brandywine X Bloody Butcher cross, that Sherry Sheisal and I did last year, they are very early, the taste is excellent, and they are production machines of beautiful fruit that is market quality.
I grew out 10 f2's to make my selection, and lucky for me the earliest one had a slight beefsteak appearance, which I want, on average weighed from 3-6 oz, or so, and the taste was memorable.
I grew out 18 F3's, they are pretty consistent in shape and size, 12 went in the greenhouse, 6 went into the outside garden June 30th to see if I can get ripe fruit before frost. We have began tasting the fruit, we are seeing some variation there, it will be a week or so before we get through them all to find a favorite. The fruit size on these are also slightly larger than previous generations, and seems to be about 4-7oz average, with the first fruits being up to a pound. I also really like how the fruit on the trusses ripens close to the same time.
The plants in the picks were planted at the end of May, from the f2 that was started in January.
I am hoping to end up with a Brandywine quality OP line, that will produce very fast, yield well, look appealing, and tolerate cooler weather. That's not asking for too much. lol

[QUOTE=AKmark;501107]I have a few projects I am tinkering with, but this may just be my fav so far. This is an F3 of my Brandywine X Bloody Butcher cross, that Sherry Sheisal and I did last year, they are very early, the taste is excellent, and they are production machines of beautiful fruit that is market quality.
I grew out 10 f2's to make my selection, and lucky for me the earliest one had a slight beefsteak appearance, which I want, on average weighed from 3-6 oz, or so, and the taste was memorable.
I grew out 18 F3's, they are pretty consistent in shape and size, 12 went in the greenhouse, 6 went into the outside garden June 30th to see if I can get ripe fruit before frost. We have began tasting the fruit, we are seeing some variation there, it will be a week or so before we get through them all to find a favorite. The fruit size on these are also slightly larger than previous generations, and seems to be about 4-7oz average, with the first fruits being up to a pound. I also really like how the fruit on the trusses ripens close to the same time.
The plants in the picks were planted at the end of May, from the f2 that was started in January.
I am hoping to end up with a Brandywine quality OP line, that will produce very fast, yield well, look appealing, and tolerate cooler weather. That's not asking for too much. lol[/QUOTE]

Your cross is very much the same as Stanley Zubrowski in Canada did. he crossed Brandywine with 5 earlies, all red, I can only remember Glacier and Siberian and Stupice now, he sent me F1 seeds of all 5 crosses and all were red small ones,expected since small fruit size is dominant to large fruit size.

His goal was to introduce better taste into some earlies. Time for me to give you a couple of links rather thandoing more typing. From the Stupice cross camethis one:

[url]http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Maya_and_Sion's_Airdrie_Classic[/url]

And now more on the same subject:

[url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=16696[/url]

Were all of your F1 fruits kind of mini beefsteaks and I ask b'c that's what I got.:)

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn, the F1 will throw a few beefsteak looking tomatoes, 6-8oz, but 95 percent are perfectly round and blemish free, 3-4oz, the F2 is where I saw more variation, and is why I planted a few to select from. I also had two in the f2's come out pink, and about BB size.

I have crossed BB to several great heirlooms, another good one is the BB X Dester x but I am just growing the F1 for now, very rich tomato taste, a few days behind BW X BB. These are my two favorites. have backcrossed the BW X BB F1 into the line as well, and crossed the BB X Dester into the F2 for more interesting combinations.
I have about 40-50 plants of many early varieties growing outside, I am keeping pretty good notes, and of course I take a lot of pictures for records, so we will just find out how everything does in time.
I can say, "since everything I grow gets the same fair shake, these crosses I mentioned are truly wonderful taste-wise."

Thanks for the links, I appreciate that
Mark in AK

Mark, so glad you are doing this, we need more early medium and bigger sized tomatoes. Your plants and fruit look terrific! Here's hoping BB's early maturity will stick with your selections. Do you have a name in mind yet for a finished version?

ddsack, we do have a name, but I am going to wait until it is a stable line to tag it. I can easily do two generations per year, almost three, so it won't be long.
I also have plants from all three generations going, so I will post some pics of the F1, and in the F2 you can see the subtle changes, and pics of some that were not used.
For the F4's, I will plant them with a couple F1's to see how early they are when compared to the original cross which beat Early Girl this year.
We also did BB X Fred Limbaugh, they are third best of the BB crosses.
Just fun stuff to share.
Mark.

How cool that you and Sherry have connected on tomatoes, I'm sure her breeding experience with the dwarf project is very helpful. Isn't it fun just seeing all the combinations come out in the F2's! I'm really looking forward to your results!

I had quite the surprise this season with the F 4's of my Brandywine x Bloody Butcher cross. I planted 8 F1's again, 8 from the F3 plant (B) which was the earliest, and 40 plant (A) F3's, which was excellent tasting, and still quite early for a beefsteak type. This round 8 of 40 are nearly as early as the F1, and much larger beefsteak type of fruit.
Up to this point I have not been able to recapture the very early nature of the F1. Now, I have to taste all of them, judge yields, plant structures, most are shorter, stout type plants, I like that, and tomato shapes are considered too. I will plant 75-100 of the winners, and at the rate they are growing that will be mid May for two generations this year. I hope to see more like 50 percent early traits this round, but that's only a guess since I stumble my way through this stuff, but I am very patient too.
I will also redo the cross this year, the F1 is just terrific, smooth fruit, early, and super tasty.
I also selected a small pink fruiting plant in the F2, I am going to try to get a pink Bloody Butcher type of tomato captured, I have 5 of the F3 of those going too. We will call the stable main focus plants the Mat-Su Express since I live between the Matanuska and Susitna Valleys, and they are quite early. The F1 last year performed like a charm outside up here, others in better climates should be very happy with that cross.
I saw Sherry the other day, now we are putting Delicious to BB, as well as Chapman and Yellow BW, obviously I am hooked on BB crosses. LOL
Anyway...

Akmark, I just read your thread and your experiments sound interesting to me. I grew Bloody Butcher last year for the first time (bought a plant at a local nursery) and really enjoyed it. I liked it enough to keep seed and have been trying to think up a good dark tomato cross with BB but have yet to decide what to cross BB with. Your crosses sound great and I look forward to reading about future crosses...

Al

I also crossed BB with Bear Creek for an early dark tomato, I have the F1's growing now, we will just have to see how they pan out.

Awesome to hear you're making so much progress with this cross, Mark.:D
It's fantastic that you can grow so many plants, and even get two generations in a year.
Also brilliant to produce more F1 seed, since it's such a good one.
I was hoping to try your F1 this year, but my resources for growing are tenuous and I had to scale back my tomato starts, knowing that the plants may end up with nowhere to go.

Re: selecting for earliness - in my crosses here, I selected for early flowering first in the F2, and hoping to find the combination of desired traits somewhere in the 'early' pool of F2's. I had the impression that earliness does segregate out in the first couple of generations, but I may be wrong. Another option is to make crosses between generations or siblings down the line, to try and recapture the full package earliness/size/texture/taste. I know it's difficult to get larger fruit that are early - and why they're hard to find! - but for certain you have the best chance to do that with such a large grow out. Very exciting project for us short season folks.
Best of luck with your season, and I look forward to your updates! 8-)

Mark, have you considered Indian Stripe PL or JD's Special C-Tex? BK, IS and JD are about the same 75 days from transplanting.

I am looking forward to see what will come out of your experiments. I am sure it will be interesting. Best of luck.

Bower, I did select the earliest in the F2, but it was at least 10 days later than the F1, maybe even a tad later, that is why I was so surprised to see the early trait of several F 4's show up. You know I sell plants and fruit too, my customers loved that F1, and for several people it was a favorite, so I just listen to them.
Ella, I have tried those and I do like them too, but I did not think to try a cross to them. I do have a PL Black Krim X PL Early girl, isn't JD's a cross with EG?

Mark, that's good to know! I'll be keeping an eye out for any more earliness segregation in my later generations too then. :yes:

[QUOTE=AKmark;550119]Bower, I did select the earliest in the F2, but it was at least 10 days later than the F1, maybe even a tad later, that is why I was so surprised to see the early trait of several F 4's show up. You know I sell plants and fruit too, my customers loved that F1, and for several people it was a favorite, so I just listen to them.
Ella, I have tried those and I do like them too, but I did not think to try a cross to them. I do have a PL Black Krim X PL Early girl, isn't JD's a cross with EG?[/QUOTE]

You are right, JD is cross of BK and EG. No wonder I like it.:P

Beefsteaks
 

The BW X BB F4 (plant A, from the f3 selection) has proved to be quite early for me. It is side by side many other varieties and is only second in earliness to the F1 by about a week, but has much larger fruit.
These are 102 days from seed sprout, I just redid the days to make sure. Will taste them tonight or tomorrow, if they pass I will save seed and sprout all of them for a F5 selection.

Plant (B) is also ripening, but they are freaks, yield-wise, never seen any like them, they pile on 5-10 oz fruit like a cherry tomato plant does mini fruit. LOL