Direct-seeding next year
 

Next year I'm planning to direct-seed everything, except okra (because okra takes ages to germinate and mature when direct-seeded here), maybe peppers, strawberries and maybe a few odds and ends. I've been looking at my reseeded and direct-seeded plants, and they seem to have considerable advantages over my transplants (in cold-hardiness, drought-hardiness, appearance, etc.). Plus, they don't have the time-delay that comes with transplanting. True, germination rates may not be as good for all varieties, but I have lots of seeds.

I know people say tomatoes that are direct-seeded take a lot more time to get fruit, but I'm not sure if that's as true as most people think. When people say x days from transplant and y days from seed, they might be considering that y was also transplanted (and are just calculating the days from being seeded in small containers) on to after they're transplanted and have fruit, which shouldn't be the same as days from seed if direct-seeded (whether or not it would be longer/shorter).

I'll probably direct-seed a lot of stuff in April, next year (or before if I use milk jugs). Direct-seeded plants don't seem to care about cold as much in my gareden (so, that's why I wouldn't wait until the last frost was over).

Anyway, I need something to cut down on things vying for my attention, and I think this will help. I'll [I]probably[/I] grow less tomato varieties next year. I might stick with early indeterminates and a few other choice varieties. As for this year, I've still got 101! :) Granted, all but three varieties (five plants) have a late start, due to a later frost-free season this year, fatigue, and my having started the seeds two weeks or so later than last year. Hopefully I'll find lots more choice varieties.

As for now, I'm direct-seeding a bunch of watermelon. A number of the transplants died.

About the advantages for direct-seeded plants, it seems that tomatoes transplanted very early are capable of obtaining some of those advantages, too, eventually.

There is a lady here in our area who never starts seeds indoors. She even starts tomatoes in the middle of summer by putting them in an area with mostly shade through the day. She covers with milk jugs she cut the bottoms out of and keeps the lids. She can take the lid off to allow more air in or close it when there is a storm coming. Her plants always do well.

Shule1, thanks for this this thread. I have been giving some thought to this for a while - a long while...Decades.

Everything my grandfathers and father started in their gardens were from seed - including tomatoes. That was back in the 60s and 70s. They grew some really great gardens.

Over the past 7 years of my gardening experience, I have learned that volunteers out produce plants that are transplanted. "After all, they're growing like weeds."

[QUOTE=Rockporter;641902]There is a lady here in our area who never starts seeds indoors. She even starts tomatoes in the middle of summer by putting them in an area with mostly shade through the day. She covers with milk jugs she cut the bottoms out of and keeps the lids. She can take the lid off to allow more air in or close it when there is a storm coming. Her plants always do well.[/QUOTE]

Wow. That's pretty cool. :) Thanks for your reply. She sounds like my kind of person. You must get some awesome storms. It takes quite a bit to disrupt a plant coming from above an open milk jug hole (although I've had it happen once—it was an enormous amount of heavy rain, unusual for my area).

I use milk jugs to protect plants from frost and to a lesser degree, from other weather/insects (sans grasshoppers that hatch under the jug), wind, and dry air. I haven't tried them in shade in the middle of summer, though.

[QUOTE=AlittleSalt;641908]Shule1, thanks for this this thread. I have been giving some thought to this for a while - a long while...Decades.

Everything my grandfathers and father started in their gardens were from seed - including tomatoes. That was back in the 60s and 70s. They grew some really great gardens.

Over the past 7 years of my gardening experience, I have learned that volunteers out produce plants that are transplanted. "After all, they're growing like weeds."[/QUOTE]

You're welcome. Thanks for your words. :)

Speaking of weeds, I think tomatoes are our most abundant weed in the watermelon/muskmelon patch, this year (tomatoes were there last year). They're outdoing the lambsquarter, amaranth, morning glory, calendula (it's reseeds like a weed), prickly lettuce, catnip, horehound, creeping charlie, grass, and whatever else we have, currently. They're a lot easier to control than some of those things, though.

[QUOTE=shule1;641912]Wow. That's pretty cool. :) Thanks for your reply. She sounds like my kind of person. You must get some awesome storms. It takes quite a bit to disrupt a plant coming from above an open milk jug hole (although I've had it happen once—it was an enormous amount of heavy rain, unusual for my area).

I use milk jugs to protect plants from frost and to a lesser degree, from other weather/insects (sans grasshoppers that hatch under the jug), wind, and dry air. I haven't tried them in shade in the middle of summer, though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's pretty hot and humid in the summer. I think the closing of the jug is to keep out the heavy rainfall but also for winter time when she is sewing seeds for the next season. She has a nice yard with plenty of shaded areas she can do this, but my yard is not setup with all the trees around me like she has. She has the ability to surround her jugs with other pots growing this seasons things which then protect the jug from the wind. She's got a pretty cool setup. :?:

I used to do that! I would diligently pick up any large tomatoes that rotted in the garden, while leaving any cherries that fell. I knew that any volunteers would be cherries, and I'd simply select the biggest ones and re-plant them in a row. It always worked really well!

BTW I never knew that Sweet Million was an F1 and it seemed to grow true.

Linda

I've been considering direct seeding some tomato plants into 5 gal containers, wondering why that wouldn't work out well. I'd love to bypass the transplant step. I do worry about the high winds and wild temperature swings, and having a very large number of plants makes protecting each individual seedling a real chore.

It may work in your zone. My volunteer tomato plants will set flowers, but I've never had them go to fruit with my short growing season. Transplanting is a must for my zone.

I've thought about this as well. Wonder how it work here in SC?

[QUOTE=Rockporter;641940]Yeah, it's pretty hot and humid in the summer. I think the closing of the jug is to keep out the heavy rainfall but also for winter time when she is sewing seeds for the next season. She has a nice yard with plenty of shaded areas she can do this, but my yard is not setup with all the trees around me like she has. She has the ability to surround her jugs with other pots growing this seasons things which then protect the jug from the wind. She's got a pretty cool setup. :?:[/QUOTE]

I usually just build up soil around the sides of my jugs to lock them in place, to protect them from wind and curious cats. We tend to get probably above average wind here, but maybe your area is even more windy. This year hasn't been very windy, though. You have to be careful with small plants if you remove the jugs, since the dirt around may be taller than the plants and may smother them during watering if you're not careful.

[QUOTE=Lowcountry;641969]I've thought about this as well. Wonder how it work here in SC?[/QUOTE]

I'm curious about that, too. I don't know why it wouldn't work in the southern states.

People from there might have things to say. :)

If it gets above 95° F. that's supposed to make it harder for tomatoes to sprout. I don't know how hot it is in your area during the time you would want to seed.

[QUOTE=Salsacharley;641947]I've been considering direct seeding some tomato plants into 5 gal containers, wondering why that wouldn't work out well. I'd love to bypass the transplant step. I do worry about the high winds and wild temperature swings, and having a very large number of plants makes protecting each individual seedling a real chore.[/QUOTE]

I think it can work pretty well if you do it right, but make sure it's not too hot by the time you do it (or else maybe shade it to cool it like Rockporter mentioned). However, with containers, you'll want to make sure you have a soil the seeds will sprout in. Not all container soils are great for germination. I had tomatillos and a tomato reseed in a container once (very early). I left two tomatillos in and they did quite well. I transplanted the tomato. They had overwintered in the soil. Disturbing the soil and watering seems to encourage earlier germination for reseeded seeds.

I know it's not supposed to be ideal, but I used garden soil (mixed with peat moss) for my container (which is why it had tomatillo seeds in it). I didn't grow tomatillos in the same container the year before.

It depends on how long your growing season is I guess. My seedlings that I set out in May are probably 6 weeks old and I get tomatoes and peppers in late July.

If I direct seeded my plants I guess that I wouldn't get fruits until late August or September and that is too late for me.

My soil is too cold for seedlings of warm weather plants like tomatoes or peppers to do much growing before the middle of May even under milk jugs.

[QUOTE=shule1;642027]I usually just build up soil around the sides of my jugs to lock them in place, to protect them from wind and curious cats. We tend to get probably above average wind here, but maybe your area is even more windy. This year hasn't been very windy, though. You have to be careful with small plants if you remove the jugs, since the dirt around may be taller than the plants and may smother them during watering if you're not careful.[/QUOTE]

We are on the Gulf Of Mexico and she is only 1 mile from the coast. I am about 5 miles from the coast. The wind pretty much swirls around us here, and it's usually some good wind gusts that come with it. :yes:

[QUOTE=brownrexx;642034]It depends on how long your growing season is I guess. My seedlings that I set out in May are probably 6 weeks old and I get tomatoes and peppers in late July.

If I direct seeded my plants I guess that I wouldn't get fruits until late August or September and that is too late for me.

My soil is too cold for seedlings of warm weather plants like tomatoes or peppers to do much growing before the middle of May even under milk jugs.[/QUOTE]

How cold does it get when you would want to do it?

Hmm. You might be surprised what milk jugs can do if you haven't tried them, yet. The plants won't grow or sprout well, if at all, while the cap is on (I'd only recommend leaving it on if a storm is going to damage your plants or something; in my area, I just throw the cap away; you don't need the cap at all to protect the plants from any of the freezes I've tried them in). They need outside air to grow (and the lack of air may even kill them; some people probably confuse the damage they endure from lack of air with overheating, since they talk about how the sun can kill them easily even when it's cold, which is not my experience without a cap). I've had newly transplanted Yellow Pear tomatoes grow just fine when it was either 19 or 23° for the night-time low, in a warm February, under a milk jug (they were at the side of our house in shade, though, which may have had more protection than an area with direct sun). Those were transplants and not seeds, though, but seeds should be able to germinate under a milk jug and grow a considerable amount before the last frost. They do in my unheated, small greenhouse, in March and April, anyway (and it's basically like a giant milk jug). They take longer to sprout in March than April, though, but I think it's worth the head-start if the work involved isn't a big issue (although germination rates may be better in April).

The main challenge with starting seeds under milk jugs is perhaps watering them (and/or the soil issue I mentioned in another comment), especially if you put dirt around the jugs to lock them in place. I've found that I can water the interior of milk jugs with the mister option on my hose nozzle. So, as long as it's not too cold to be good for a hose, that could work.

You'll want to make sure any early milk jug plants and/or plants in a small, unheated greenhouse, have plenty of phosphorus, though. Plants seem to need more of it when it's cold (especially small plants; my Yellow Pear transplants weren't particularly small, and they were kind of old, seeded indoors extra-extra-early; those didn't need extra phosphorus—it must have been sufficient in the soil). Monopotassium phosphate seems helpful for my greenhouse.

Phosphorus is also important because it helps plants mature, which could be very important for areas with shorter seasons.

I'm personally not planning to do most of my direct-seeded plants under milk jugs (just unprotected, like weeds and hope they survive the elements like the reseeded tomatoes and weeds do). However, if I wanted to start them extra-early (as in before April 10th or so). I would use milk jugs, and I do want to do at least some plants like that. I might do more if I have an abundance of jugs (but I'm not counting on having them). Our average last frost date is about May 10th. This year it seems to have been later (or at least the risk of frost was there much later, whether or not it actually frosted).

I recommend removing the jugs as soon as it's warm enough for tomatoes.

I pulled up those Yellow Pear plants early because they had pithium on their stems while indoors, and although they didn't seem bothered by it outdoors, I didn't know much about pithium's level of contagiousness outdoors at that time; so, I pulled them up even though they looked healthy. They probably would have been fine. I think pithium is naturally in the outdoor soil anyway.

I have been winter sowing in 2 ltr soda bottles for a couple of years, the results are amazing. Although I have not had too much success with tomatoes this way, but others have said it works great.

I direct seeded for many years. In all honesty, those started in the garden and those in the house produced fruit at the same time. Once the plants started growing well, you could never have guessed which one was which and I live in Wisconsin which has a short season.

Might happen here by accident other than that it isn't going to happen unless you protect them.
Way too many weather swings.

Worth

To direct seed in the south you would want to "winter sow" them. In other words prep your bed in the fall and plant the seeds. Then cover the bed with something until Spring. Once it gets warm enough remove the cover and let them germinate naturally.

I have done this with cherry tomatoes and they are almost impervious to disease. I usually just let them sprawl and they never have problems. I was somewhat amazed by it tbh. They grew fast, were healthy, and took zero upkeep. The milk jug thing would work but that is more effort. If you just cover the seeded bed with cardboard or anything to keep the dirt from washing away and the birds from getting the seeds you can "set it and forget it" so to speak.

I like that. I could try.
Vladimír

[QUOTE=BigVanVader;642230]To direct seed in the south you would want to "winter sow" them. In other words prep your bed in the fall and plant the seeds. Then cover the bed with something until Spring. Once it gets warm enough remove the cover and let them germinate naturally.

I have done this with cherry tomatoes and they are almost impervious to disease. I usually just let them sprawl and they never have problems. I was somewhat amazed by it tbh. They grew fast, were healthy, and took zero upkeep. The milk jug thing would work but that is more effort. If you just cover the seeded bed with cardboard or anything to keep the dirt from washing away and the birds from getting the seeds you can "set it and forget it" so to speak.[/QUOTE]

I didn't think about covering them with cardboard before germination. That should insulate the soil, keep it moist, attract worms, and be a lot less work than using milk jugs to warm the soil. I've never tried sprouting tomatoes without light, though. Are there any caveats to that? Plus, the soil would still be flat.

Edit: I guess I misread your post. Sounds like you meant something similar, but different than my first thought, and longer-term. I was thinking putting out the cardboard in the spring when I want them to sprout; plus, I thought about taking it off only after they do sprout, but I think I understood that you weren't suggesting that.

Seeds dont need light to sprout.
Worth

[QUOTE=Worth1;642532]Seeds dont need light to sprout.
Worth[/QUOTE]

I've read that tomato seeds don't need light to sprout, but until now I haven't had reason to attempt it. ;)

[QUOTE=shule1;642533]I've read that tomato seeds don't need light to sprout, but until now I haven't had reason to attempt it. ;)[/QUOTE]
The only reason I turn the lights on now is so they see light when they do sprout out of the soil.
In the real environment that would be every morning.
In the house never unless the lights were on.
Plus they are under the soil so they dont see light anyway.

Worth

[QUOTE=Worth1;642534]The only reason I turn the lights on now is so they see light when they do sprout out of the soil.
In the real environment that would be every morning.
In the house never unless the lights were on.
Plus they are under the soil so they dont see light anyway.

Worth[/QUOTE]

I forgot that seeds seem to need air to sprout, to some degree, though. I wonder if they would get enough to sprout in a timely fashion under cardboard. I guess unless I plastered it to the ground, or something, they might be okay sprouting before taking it off.

The problem with this method is that, for tomatoes, you lose a lot of time, at least one month. And they can produce all year, so you lose one month of production.

[QUOTE=zipcode;642539]The problem with this method is that, for tomatoes, you lose a lot of time, at least one month. And they can produce all year, so you lose one month of production.[/QUOTE]

If you sprout them two or three weeks after the time you would normally start them indoors, shouldn't it amount to about the same, if you take things like hardening off (which you wouldn't have to do) and the need to substract time for adjusting to the transplant into consideration? I'd say those things can amount to up to a few weeks. Also, with direct-seeding, you normally end up with perfectly undisturbed roots, which may have long-term benefits. However, it is possible that plants from indoors mature some without growing new leaves during those periods that transplants endure (although I don't know that they do; it seems like they don't), I suppose.

My personal thought is that direct-seeding can certainly set you back [I]at least[/I] a month, but that you can work around the issues there to prevent that from happening.

One thing about reseeded tomatoes is they might be more neglected on average (with regard to soil amendments) than transplants and purposefully direct-seeded plants. Plus, the soil may be more compacted. Plus, they may sprout a lot later than they are capable of sprouting, if you don't encourage them by tilling the soil and watering them or such. Reseeded plants are also often transplanted after sprouting. Direct-seeded tomatoes might lose some reputation due to stuff like that with reseeded tomatoes. People might be less likely to amend soil for direct-seeded seeds, too (which may be an issue).

Direct-seeded plants that sprout when it's colder probably need more phosphorus, too, in order to mature and grow as fast as indoor plants, perhaps. Phosphorus is said to be less available when it's cold, and it helps with plant maturity (as well as cold-tolerance and leaf size).

[QUOTE=shule1;642536]I forgot that seeds seem to need air to sprout, to some degree, though. I wonder if they would get enough to sprout in a timely fashion under cardboard. I guess unless I plastered it to the ground, or something, they might be okay sprouting before taking it off.[/QUOTE]

I don't leave the cardboard on once it gets warm. Its just for winter protection. Once it hits April I remove and let them come up as they please. I've only done it once so results may vary but I had good success when I tried it.

They are nice and stocky little plants, that is true. Will they recover the time? Well, partly, but not that much. How much time is transplant shock? About a week, maybe 10 days. Hardening off is still growing.
Sure, try though, who knows, maybe they really will be more resistant.