Leaves Drying from the bottom Up, HELP!
 

I have an issue that is mind boggling, the plants I seeded a month ago have gotten to a point where the bottom leaves dry up and fall before the whole plant starts curling on itself.

Here's how it starts:
Notice how the dryness spreads from the leaf to the whole branch.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/HJ6ntd5.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/G6xaI3n.jpg[/img]

the dried leaves crunch between your fingers....

Then this is happening (at least with my Whiskey Jack variety)
[img]https://i.imgur.com/tjJWDFO.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/9oVPQGe.jpg[/img]

I don't think my WJ plants will survive long enough to get planted outside....

I'd like to believe that my plants are comfy in their container, get fed with the blue sutff and in theory have enough light thanks to two T5 bulbs but the reality says otherwise, something is wrong!

Theory number 1: could it be my T5 bulbs?
Today I read that there should be at least 4 inch between the plants and the light, my plants were closer than that but that does not explain the problem starting from the bottom.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/gRNskY9.jpg[/img]

Theory number 2: Excess fertilizer? I am using the all purpose blue stuff that you dilute in water. I read that the feeding should be spaced at 2 weeks. My plants get on a average 1 feeding per week. Could it be that there's too much N?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/pa73Wf4.jpg[/img]

Theory number 3: UV burn? Behind the curtain there's a window, could the UV rays be burning those leaves? a little bit far fetched?

Theory number 4: Would not having a fan trigger something!?

What do you think?:?

Thanks

[B][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3]My first thought, due to the curling/twisting of the branches, is too much moisture. Another reason could be too much fertilizer... or a combination of the two.

Inspect the stems/branches, as well as the underside of the leaves, for little white blisters - I thought I saw some in the pictures. If you do see them, it is an edema (or more specifically, an intumescence).

Check for that first and let us know what you find.


Edit: It's not your lights or the distance between the lights and tops of the plants. I keep mine about 1-2 inches from the tops... and I use T5 HO lights.
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I concur w/ Doug. At what strength are you mixing the fertilizer? For seedlings that size, I use MG Blue at somewhere b/w half and one third strength....

Jon

@Doug @Goodloe thanks for providing your feedback.

My last feeding was 2 tsp for 1.75L (full strength), I guess this made things worse.

Would running a fan for 12 hrs/day help with the moisture? or do I need a dehumidifier to tackle this?

I'm with Koala Doug - looks like fertilizer burn to me from too much N. Give them some straight water. The leaves that are burnt are goners and you can take them off the plant. We always want to push more fertilizer but often over do it. I'd lay off the fert and then start back up with a half dose in a week or 2.

I also agree, doesn't look like light burn.

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]A fan would be helpful.

Can you confirm any small, white blisters on the underside of the leaves (especially the older leaves)?
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The easiest way to combat moisture would be to water less..

I water from the bottom. Maybe straight water from the top would help flush em out? Just a thought...

Jon

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]Here is an example of what I believe to be a 'blister' (for lack of a better word) caused by an edema (too much water). This is a close-up of one of your images you posted - it also appears that the veins close to that spot are raised and swollen:


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@koala and I thought I had watering under control :(

I had already switched into just watering with no ferts this week, so most of the plants will survive except maybe for the WhiskeyJacks as they proved to be oversensitive (or call it getting too much love as I wanted them to be the best)

Will check for those edemas once I get home but it looks like you already caught them!

[B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]I'm almost 100% sure your plant's problem is too much water (not too much fertilizer). But on that note, I thought I saw a tell-tale Miracle-Gro round fertilizer ball in one of your pictures. If that is the case, then you'll have to be careful to not give them too much fertilizer as the mix already has some in it.

Keep a fan on them - that'll help speed up the evaporation from the potting mix. If you can slightly raise the containers so some air flow can get underneath (where, I assume, there are holes in the bottoms of the pots), that should also aid a tiny bit in drying out the over-saturated growing medium.

Your plants can recover... but the affected leaves will not. The twisted stems/leaves will stay that way. The leaves with the dying tips might fully die off. But the future new growth will be normal if the moisture problem is rectified - so there is hope!
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Looks fungal to me. Grey mold possibly. They do not look over fertilized, rather they look pale and over watered.
How soon until you can get them some sun and warmth?


KarenO

[QUOTE=Koala Doug;694975][B][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond]Here is an example of what I believe to be a 'blister' (for lack of a better word) caused by an edema (too much water). This is a close-up of one of your images you posted - it also appears that the veins close to that spot are raised and swollen:


[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

The thing KDoug circled looks like an aphid to me - and that would explain the curling too.

I don't know anything about the blue stuff ferts so I can't comment on that.

The lower leaf issues look to me like it's too damp, and not enough light. I would definitely open the curtain if there's a window, and give them some sun and natural light. Also spread them out a bit more and give them air, or just cut your losses and be prepared to remove those lower leaves if you have to keep them crowded together a bit longer. It is better to remove anything funky looking IMO, a dead leaf for any reason is just a hotel for trouble.

Don't know if you're having a late (or lousy!) spring like so many others. I know if I found aphids indoors, I'd want to put the plants straight out the door. :roll: Sometimes it's harder on the pests than it is on the plants (here that's the rule, anyway). If it doesn't freeze, the Whiskeyjacks would likely survive (and straighten out, hopefully! Okay, wishful but.. you never know ;)).

I don't like the black area on the lower stem on one of the pictures on one plant, I saw just one,or are there other stems that show that as well,since I am thinking of a particular disease that can happen,not a common one. Is this affecting ALL of your seedlings or just some,and are any of them heart varieties?

Carolyn

[QUOTE=carolyn137;695001]I don't like the black area on the lower stem on one of the pictures on one plant, I saw just one,or are there other stems that show that as well,since I am thinking of a particular disease that can happen,not a common one. Is this affecting ALL of your seedlings or just some,and are any of them heart varieties?

Carolyn[/QUOTE]
I see what you mean, Carolyn... that looks nasty. :( Is it pythium? I googled and that's what came up that looks like it.
And yes, that one is a heart.

I saw that too, and have no idea what causes that.

This is the stem that looks like pythium (damping off) to me:
Is that what you're looking at too?

Yesterday I dropped by the nursery to purchase some containers and showed the pictures to the lady.

She was sure that it's a case of over fertilization, she said the leaves are mirroring the root damage due to strong fertilizer use.

So it looks like my mistake was to transplant the seedlings into miracle grow potting mix (which has fert) and to hit them with a full strength of fertilizer with every watering.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/T8hQVud.jpg[/img]

According to her, the blue stuff should be at most once a month not once a week.

I think most of my plants will recover/survive, except for my WhiskeyJacks, it's frustrating because because I seeded them first, gave them the largest container, the best spotlight and the most fertilizer love. Now I have to restart this variety, at least it's not too late....

Funny thing is I planted 1 SivlerFir Tree to see how the plant looks like and lo and behold it's about to flower! Fertilizer abuse barely scratched its lower leaves :lol:
too bad it's not known to be a tasty variety :P

M, I couldn't get back with you since I had a major problem getting back online, and just an hour ago Wayne was able to do that for me. He's my wonderful computer expert and long time friend as well.

But it looks like you've solved the problem,let's hope so.:)

Carolyn

@carolyn, fingers crossed it's smooth sailing from here!

Great to have you back online and Kudos to Wayne for his excellent support :)

1 Week later, I am still seeing this phenomenon whereby the lower leaves start drying from the tip of the leaf until the whole leaf drops off. This happens from the bottom up.

The over fertilization explains why the plants above curled on themselves but these new plants were not fertilized.

Could it be a distance issue with my T5 lights ? Why would not having a fan cause this drying from the bottom up? Those are the only 2 items I can think of.

Here's an updated picture
[img]https://i.imgur.com/uRAu4wY.jpg[/img]

Now i'm hoping some of the plants survive long enough to go outside...:(

Mine have been doing the exact same thing. I took all the affected leaves off and put them outside. I covered them at night, and brought them in if I thought they'd freeze. A few went into the windowsill, they were smaller, weaker plants. All the outside plants recovered right away. About half the windowsill plants recovered. 2 died, and the last one is just sitting there with pretty much no leaves.

I don't know if this caused it, but it started happening after potting them up with the same miracle gro potting mix from your picture. Thought maybe it had too much fertilizer. I don't know, but I also gave them a lot of water when I put them outside, and I think that might have helped flush out whatever was causing it.

[QUOTE=Banadoura;696511]1 Week later, I am still seeing this phenomenon whereby the lower leaves start drying from the tip of the leaf until the whole leaf drops off. This happens from the bottom up.

The over fertilization explains why the plants above curled on themselves but these new plants were not fertilized.

Could it be a distance issue with my T5 lights ? Why would not having a fan cause this drying from the bottom up? Those are the only 2 items I can think of.

Here's an updated picture
[img]https://i.imgur.com/uRAu4wY.jpg[/img]

Now i'm hoping some of the plants survive long enough to go outside...:([/QUOTE]

Originally I said I had an alternative suggestion but you said,at that time you'd solved the problem.

My suggestion has to do with what's called aberrant Early Blight.Do you remember when I asked if any of the affected seedlings were hearts, and you said yes?

Would you like to hear more, since I think, I hope, I still have those links somewhere.:)

Carolyn

@Bad finally someone going through the same thing!!

Last year I used a different brand of potting soil and ended up with the same problem.
Here's where it gets interesting:

1) it does happen after potting up
2) Last year, when I took them outside in and out for a few days they recovered and thrived. Since the containers dry fast under the wind/sun and they get watered often, maybe this does wash away whatever might be causing it

If the potting mix is indeed the problem, why aren't more people complaining about this issue?

@Carolyn, except for some recently potted Omar's Lebanese Hearts, I don't have any hearts.

A quick googling on blight showed yellowing leaves with brown spots. This does not apply to my problem as the leaves bleach and dry.

Do you know if Silver Fir Tree is resistant to this? It's the only plant that is surviving and even blooming from 10+ varieties! Also, why does the problem dissipate when the plants start spending time outdoors?

I'll take those links if you still believe it's a blight variant :)

[IMG]https://s19.postimg.cc/4iqnenzlv/20180422_081758.jpg[/IMG]

The last of my inside plants. I'm going to plant it outside today and see if that helps. Doubt it will, but it can't hurt it. I have backups of these ones, but not of most.

None of my plants are hearts.

[QUOTE=Banadoura;696519]@Carolyn, except for some recently potted Omar's Lebanese Hearts, I don't have any hearts.

A quick googling on blight showed yellowing leaves with brown spots. This does not apply to my problem as the leaves bleach and dry.

Do you know if Silver Fir Tree is resistant to this? It's the only plant that is surviving and even blooming from 10+ varieties! Also, why does the problem dissipate when the plants start spending time outdoors?

I'll take those links if you still believe it's a blight variant :)[/QUOTE]

BINGO on what you just posted, and I'll get to that eventually.

Silvery Fir Tree has angora foliage and perhaps angora foliaged varieties are more tolerant. Without making comparisons with other angora ones I can't speak with confidence.

The BINGO refers to your comment about the problem disappearing when put outdoors, I assume with sun most of the time ,b/c that's exactly what did happen with my seedlings.

I would have taken off all the falling off lower brown foliage in the falling down greenhouse, then taken them out to the field to plant, and do so deeply so just a tuft of foliage was showing,and voila, all new foliage was perfect, and they were as perfect growing larger as one could hope for.:)

Carolyn

Here's a question. When potting up, how moist was the potting mix? I'm wondering if you used it straight out of the bag, and it was dry. Some mixes take forever to absorb moisture and it would be extra-stressful to seedlings.

Linda

[IMG]https://s19.postimg.cc/kslev8ms3/20180422_094753.jpg[/IMG]

One left alone, one put outside. The big one was bigger from the start, so it was with the group that went outside earlier. Same variety (Martino's Roma), same seed packet, same everything.

Some varieties weren't affected at all. Cherokee green, Berkeley tie dye (green), pineapple, and all the Fred Hempel artisan tomatoes (lucky tiger, pink tiger, green tiger, blush).

I would certainly isolate your diseased tomatoes, if you intend to keep them for whatever reason, well away from your healthy ones. I still say the disease is fungal in nature.
KarenO