Persimmon (D. kaki) and pomegranate from Caucasis
 

If there any of you at TV how grow Persimmons in open soil? I think this is possible only in warmer climates Zone 8+. I know that you grow your own Virginian kind of persimmon.

So If anybody interested I can send you seeds of Caucasian persimmon (Diospyros kaki) which is very popular here to eat in wintertime. They are from Republic of Georgia (my Motherland) and Azerbaijan where they have been growing eastern type of persimmon since XIX centuary.

Yesterday I've bought 2 kg of delicious Korolek persimmons with very sweet chocolate pulp :wink: Minus 1 kg already :D There are 6-7 seeds in every fruit... Trees are hardy to - 10 C - 15 C.

[img]http://photofile.ru/photo/sionyx/598814/12620100.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.rodniki.bel.ru/derevo_plod/img/diospyros_kaki1_3.jpg[/img]

P.S. Seeds of local pomegranatum from Azerbaijan is also available...

OK.

But probably as you know, persimmon seeds require some months of stratifying in the fridge :wink:

That tree in the picture shows growth pattern
that's unlike wild persimmons in U.S. Midwest ...
Much wider canopy spread and
the fruit set is more widely spaced from one another.
Also the fruit size is much larger than wild persimmons here.
Bark texture appears slightly different as well ...
near as I can see from the picture.
And such a young tree to be so loaded with fruit.

Very nice looking tree and fruit! Good breeding.
If those were to be spread by racoons and foxes
through our Midwestern woods and scrub areas,
that would be wonderful.

PV

Andrey_BY
Two types of persimmons. One you can eat when it's hard (almost seedless), and the other you have to wait until it's very soft otherwise it will leave a strange unpleasantness in you mouth. Which one is the one you are showing?

I grew a persimmon once (zone 6). It gave me a few fruits then it was cut down by mistake.

dcarch

dcarch, actually there are 3 types of Eastern persimmon:
1. One you can eat when it's hard (almost seedless),
2. Other you have to wait until it's very soft otherwise it will leave a strange unpleasantness in your mouth.
3. Mixted - has strange uppleasantless when seedless and sweet when has some seeds after polination.

The one I've got is the third type with the nice chocolate very sweet pulp.

Actually there is one tipe to get away this strange flavour just after several houres of passing such persimmons in the warm (30-40 C) water :wink:

PV, do you want me to send you these persimmon seeds to try? Probably it is hardy enough even for Zone 6b/7a

But usually D.kaki has no both male and female blooms. So need to grow several trees for a good polination...

Andrey,

If you send me some seeds, I will give them to our city arborist
and ask him to stratify them.
He does that with bald cypress each year.
Then I'll get a seedling back from him and
he will plant the rest out in our park reserve
or some other appropriate place.

Do you still have my address?

PV

I discovered one trick for everyone who likes persimmoms:

For the type you have to wait after it becomes very soft to eat, which can take a couple of weeks, all you have to do is to put it in the freezer over-night, thaw it and it's ready.

dcarch

That doesn't look like that young a persimmon tree to me. We had one that was nearly 40 years old that didn't look too different from that one, just a wider spread. It looks very typical for the kaki that my grandmother had in her garden when I was a kid. I wish I had the room for one of those trees. Ours grew very well in the SF bay area.

Bob,

Around here the wild persimmon trees grow tall and spindly
and have small persimmons about the size of an extra large egg yolk.

I imagine the persimmons I see in grocery stores, about the size
of a tennis ball, come from out there on the left coast somewhere
and grow on somewhat different looking trees.

The single persimmon tree I have in my yard,
growing out of a scrubby patch of blackberries,
is about 18 feet tall, has a trunk about 8 - 10 inches
in diameter within 3 feet off the ground, has a canopy
spread of about 6 feet with not nearly as many branches
as what Andrey shows in his photo. The lowest branches
are about 8 feet off the ground maybe a little higher.
It's very typical of wild persimmon trees around here.

PV

[quote=dcarch]I discovered one trick for everyone who likes persimmoms:

For the type you have to wait after it becomes very soft to eat, which can take a couple of weeks, all you have to do is to put it in the freezer over-night, thaw it and it's ready.

dcarch[/quote]

That is the same excectly what usually happen when the first frost comes to Azerbaijan or Georgia (but it is not so often there :) ). But yes, in the fridge the T is about +2+5 C which is also very comfortable to treat persimmon fruits. But it is much quicker and easier in a warm water :wink:

PV, no problem. I have your address, of course. Expect big brown seeds of Korolek persimmon from Belarus (originally Republic of Georgia) within 2 weeks :wink: How about seeds of pomegranatum from Azerbaijan?

[quote=Andrey_BY]PV, no problem. I have your address, of course. Expect big brown seeds of Korolek persimmon from Belarus (originally Republic of Georgia) within 2 weeks :wink: How about seeds of pomegranatum from Azerbaijan?[/quote]

Thank you, Andrey.

Is the Pomegranatum the same as a pomegranite?

I love them, and they are also very heart healthy!

Will they grow here where winters sometime (at least used to) get down to -10*F?
The coldest winter I ever remember here was -21*F one night
with -10*F to -15*F for about a week. That's rare.
Usually -10*F is the lowest we expect,
but lately it's rare to see 0*F anymore.

Do they grow the Pomegranatum out in the open
or should it be protected in the dead of winter?

PV

PV, yup. that American or Texas pesimmon is certainly a different tree and fruit. The Oriental or Chinese persimmon is much more highly selected for use as a fruit crop. Hence, trees were selected to provide a maximum amount of fruiting wood and canopy that can be easily harvested. Hence, short and wide is better than tall and spindly. Our one tree could produce 75 pounds or more of fruit in a season. I learned to cook persimmon into all manner of guises.

There is also a wild Asian type of persimmon called Diospyros lotus or Persimmon Caucasian as we called it. It is wildly grows in Azerbaijan, Georgia, Middle and Central Asia, North of China, S.Korea and Japan. Is has much smaller fruits, but a tree is much more vigorous than Eastern (Oriental) persimmon and usually becomes a very good rootstock for D.kaki. Hardy for Zone 7+!
The fruit has an exquisitely rich flavour when it is fully ripe (almost at the point of going bad), but it is very harsh and astringent before then.

[img]http://www.rodniki.bel.ru/derevo_plod/img/diospyros_lotus2_3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.floranimal.ru/pages/flora/h/5789.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.aarhuskommune.dk/files/aak/aak/content/images/magistratens_2._afdeling/naturforvaltningen/parkerne/botanisk_have/arboret/11-Diospyros-lotus1.jpg[/img]

PV, yes, I'm sorry they are pomegranite or pomegranate :D

They prefer more hot dry climate of Azerbaijan where Zone-8/9 I think, but we used to grow them as a home plant or in pots and and bring them to the sun on the balcony or in the garden from late April till early October.

There is also a dwarf Nana version of pomegranate with small fruits specially developed for home and pots :wink:

Okay, now that persimmon looks more like the wild one around here.
Well, the leaves and twigs look exactly like it
and with the persimmons more closely set.
But still ours don't get anything like that bushy.
Maybe they prune them to grow like that.
Or is the growth habit just more "shrubby?"

Also, our wild persimmons get very dark almost opaque
burnt orange skin tone
with a whitish sugary powdery stuff on the surface ...
and all crinkled in the skin when they are dead ripe after a frost.

PV

[quote=Andrey_BY]PV, yes, I'm sorry they are pomegranite or pomegranate :D ----------------
--:wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless pomegranite or pomegranate would be nice. :wink:

dcarch

[quote=dcarch][quote=Andrey_BY]PV, yes, I'm sorry they are pomegranite or pomegranate :D ----------------
--:wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless pomegranite or pomegranate would be nice. :wink:

dcarch[/quote]

We used to eat them whole with seeds as well as grapes :wink:

[quote=Andrey_BY][quote=dcarch][quote=Andrey_BY]PV, yes, I'm sorry they are pomegranite or pomegranate :D ----------------
--:wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless pomegranite or pomegranate would be nice. :wink:

dcarch[/quote]

We used to eat them whole with seeds as well as grapes :wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless tomato would be nice (I hate seeds).

:oops: :wink:
dcarch

Sorry, it is "pomegranate." I spelled it incorrectly up there.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomegranate[/url]

When I was a kid, a neighbor lady grew pomegranates
and figs in her yard in Mississippi. It hardly ever snowed there.
I think I saw snow twice up to the age of 14
and it was an inch or two of wet snow that melted the next day.

We peeled the pomegranates and just bit into them,
sucked out the juice and spit out the seeds and pulp.
Blackberry seeds are no problem to me, so I guess
pomegranate seeds are about the same, but the pulp
is rather obnoxious after you've depleted the juice.

Lately, I drink pomegranate juice and blue berry juice
hoping to stave off any more heart disease and ...
what's that other disease called ... uh ...
wait a minute ... I'll think of it ...oh yeah ... Alzheimer's ...
just a mite longer.

PV

[quote=dcarch][quote=Andrey_BY][quote=dcarch][quote=Andrey_BY]PV, yes, I'm sorry they are pomegranite or pomegranate :D ----------------
--:wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless pomegranite or pomegranate would be nice. :wink:

dcarch[/quote]

We used to eat them whole with seeds as well as grapes :wink:[/quote]

Someday, a seedless tomato would be nice (I hate seeds).

:oops: :wink:
dcarch[/quote]

No seeds > no seed saving > no diversity :!: That's why I prefer seedy varieties :wink:

PV, pomegranate juice is very healthy indeed helps from many-many deseases (incl. cancer and anemia). Blueberry is good for eyes.

[quote=Andrey_BY;38538] How about seeds of pomegranatum from Azerbaijan?[/quote]

Andrey, I wonder if this is the same as the Azerbaijani Pomegranate bush that I am growing? The fruit is about the size of an apple. The bush has already lost a lot of leaves for autumn.

[IMG]http://www.feldoncentral.com/garden/photos/d/2958-2/Pomegranate.jpg[/IMG]

Unfortunately it is difficult to see properly because of my neighbours trees so close behind. The weight of the branches made the thick grey plastic stake bend :o

Patrina

Patrina, what a nice bushy tree you've got.

I believe Azerbaijani Pomegranates are more compact and not so leafy. Their fruit size varies from a small apple to a standard grapefruit. As far as know they prefer to form pomegranate as a compact tree in Azerbaijan.

After 4 days-off I'm gonna send you my envelope with seeds tomorrow and will add Azerbaijani Pomegranates seeds as well.

Just curious if anybody whom I've sent Azerbaijani pomegranate and persimmon seeds started them and already have some luck with seedlings?

Andrey, I tried germinating 4 pomegranate seeds, but no luck this season.... will try overwintering some in moist sand in the fridge and set them out next spring!

Patrina

I just thought I would toss this in as far as how to tell if a persimmon is ripe.

First off they grow wild in Texas as in most of the rest of the USA I have lived in.

A persimmon is ripe when it is gone from the tree.
Thats right, the possums and racoons and anything else that likes them will surely get there before you will.:evil:

After the first frost is when we/they eat them.;)

Worth

planting seeds
 

Andrey,i want to plant the persimmon seeds you just sent to me i'm Lithia Florida zone 10,the coldest it gets here (and they say this was the worst winter in 32 years) Is for a few hours last winter we we're 27 degrees. We are running 82-87 right now days and low 60's nights should i put the seeds in sand in the fridge for 6 weeks:?!?: or sow them in the soil out side:?!?: or start them in the greenhouse:?!?: I have never started fruit trees before,PLEASE ADVISE:oops: :o :? !!!!

Usually we start them indoor and small pots and they are to sprout in 10-14 days with enough watering and light... Good luck in growing them in Florida!