Dig this. Dig I must.
 

So, many of us are getting ready for the coming growing season. After I have finalized my grow list, I am planning ahead to get my raised patch in the best shape possible.

Over the years I have incorporated lots of organic compost into the soil and used a tiller to till the compost into the soil. However the tiller could only turn about 18” of soil, and I think tomato roots can go much further down.

This year I am thinking of using a pole digger auger to drill may be down to 48” and get some compost all the way down there.

What do you think? Any advice? Opinion? Experience?

Thanks

dcarch

Here is my take on this situation:

Very few root systems go below the 18" level. Those plants with taproots extending farther than that are searching for moisture rather than nutrients. Even most trees have root systems that are primarily in the the top 18-24 inches in the soil.

Tomatoes, as with most other garden plants, have besides the primary root, secondary roots and root hairs that extract nutrients and oxygen. All of these systems are relatively close to the surface.

I don't think putting compost down that deep would hurt, but I see no real value unless you like to get the exercise that comes with digging holes. Most soil tests for soil health say to get samples in the top 12".

Lots of folks would love to have 18" of good soil and they grow tomatoes on less than that.

I am thinking of doing this because I have read that:
[i][color=green]"Below 2.5 feet the branches were shorter and frequently less abundant on these younger portions of the roots. The last few inches of the rapidly growing roots were free from branches. A working depth of about 3 feet and a maximum penetration of 49 inches were found. The rather tough roots were of a light-tan color except the youngest portions which were white."[/color][/i]

From here:
[url]http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch26.html[/url]

dcarch

there is some research in the organic farming sector about no-till gardening/farming. The idea being that each time you till, you kill worms, disturb mycorrhizae, crush soil structure, and possibly compact the soil just below where the tines reach.

Ive definately turned soil before, and im less enthusiastic about it these days and dont have a tiller, so it doesnt get done by me as a general rule. (ill shovel-turn a weedy patch to help weeding)

Ive never read anything saying tilling will definately ruin a garden either. Plenty of folks till, especially if youve got a weed problem.

Good luck whichever route you take.

12 inch’s of sandy loam and rocks about 5 inch’s of rocks and clay to the center of the earth.
No tilling and I still had great tomatoes.
In this environment I had a yellow pear that had 20’ vines and sun golds with 10’ vines.
Unless you want exercise I wouldn’t bother going to 48” 2’ is more than plenty for garden vegetables.

Worth

I think it depends on the quality of your growing media and the moisture content. I used Mel's mix (compost, vermiculite and peat moss) in 12" deep raised beds this year with shreaded oak leaves for mulch. I only had to water with my soaker hoses 5 or 6 times the whole summer (it was wet in June) and grew a bunch of plants between 5 and 11 feet tall.

When I pulled the plants, the root balls averaged less then volleyball size with a couple of strangler roots going off in some direction or another. I think that the change in philosophy for tree-planting provides some insight. They used to say dig a bigger hole and fill it with rich soil. But, when you do this, you discourage root growth and the resulting tree stability. I think if you have rich soil that you keep moist, you don't need to till that deep - the roots don't go far because they aren't lacking anything.

[quote=garnetmoth]there is some research in the organic farming sector about no-till gardening/farming. The idea being that each time you till, you kill worms, disturb mycorrhizae, crush soil structure, and possibly compact the soil just below where the tines reach.
---- -.[/quote]
I tilled because I started out with very poor soil. It was yellowish sandy mud with lots of rocks completely without organic matter. It's much better now after working it for several years.

dcarch

Re: Dig this.
 

[quote=dcarch]So, many of us are getting ready for the coming growing season. After I have finalized my grow list, I am planning ahead to get my raised patch in the best shape possible.

Over the years I have incorporated lots of organic compost into the soil and used a tiller to till the compost into the soil. However the tiller could only turn about 18” of soil, and I think tomato roots can go much further down.

This year I am thinking of using a pole digger auger to drill may be down to 48” and get some compost all the way down there.

What do you think? Any advice? Opinion? Experience?

Thanks

dcarch[/quote]
I've used deep holes for years to good avail. My trick is to go catch a bunch of small fish (Bluegills, Red Ear type) and put a couple of the fish in the bottom of the hole and add a few inches of soil before putting in the plant. Good luck!

My parents always did the dead-fish-in-the-bottom-of-the-hole trick for their New Yorkers and Early Girls. Was gross, but sure worked swell!

I'm betting their holes were closer to a foot deep, not 18" or many more mucho feet.

We once had a tomato seedling - a volunteer - that took root in the apron of our driveway, where the blacktop hits the cement garage floor. The "soil" it grew in was about 1/2" of dust or powder. So much for soil prep............. 8)

=gregg=

Dcarch -

Some of my plants only grow in about 12inches of soil.
I empty my entire compost bin every fall - I've heard tilling too much can hurt beneficial micro-organisms ~

The only challenge (which I've learned over the years - and reading "stickys" lol) is blight -

I have had great success with the old "dead-fish" in the compost bin / garden routine ...

Tom

I wonder if a possum would work. :idea:
We have plenty on the road .
Worth

[quote=Worth1]I wonder if a possum would work. :idea:
We have plenty on the road .
Worth[/quote]

I thought they are for making pies :arrow: :wink:

dcarch

fresh ones sure, but, sometimes they have been there too long for use in pie.

Dig this. Dig I must.
 

I converted my rototiller to an earth digger to help me dig deep. Waiting for the soil to thaw to try it out.

dcarch :wink:

[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Auger6.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Auger.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Auger5.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Auger3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Auger2.jpg[/img]

Dang dcarch.

That monster sure looks dangerous!!! :roll:

I bet you strip a drive line or you get hung up and OFF YOU GO!!!!!
:shock: :shock: :shock:

Worth

You get that thing caught in a root or around a rock and it will spin you like a merry go round. :D

I'll give a different answer to most of what is above. Deep holes are very beneficial if you live in a dry area and if you don't irrigate. There is a farmer in Israel planting fruit trees in a very arid climate. He digs holes 25 feet deep and fills them with manure, then plants a tree in the top of the hole. The tree sends roots straight down following the nutrients and winds up in the water table which allows it to grow and thrive in spite of the near desert condition at the surface.

I have dug holes 3 feet deep and filled them with amended topsoil with lots of compost and other nutrients. Plants grow with unbelievable vigor and stay lush and productive even in August which is usually our driest month. This is because they followed the nutrients down to the clay layer which is alway moist.

Fusion

Wow! What a manly tool!!

I wanna borrow it, if it doesn't kill you............! :shock:

Be careful with that thing. You want to taste some tomatoes this year , right?

Given it's head, a robust tomato plant
will root 3-4' deep. The questions are
does it need to find N-P-K etc throughout
that volume to provide peak production
and does ease of rooting also correlate
to production?

If you provide plenty of organic matter
and a sufficiency of a tomato plant's
most pressing nutritional needs in the top
12" of soil, it may only need the rest of the
depth of roots for a consistent water supply
and perhaps to find silicon and other
minerals (that may be found even in what
would normally be considered nutritionally
poor sandy or heavy clay soil).

With a thick mulch, worms and other
native soil organisms will do a lot for
you.

I've seen ease of rooting correlate to
speed of growth in a lot of different kinds
of plants, but you don't necessarily have
to till to create conditions that promote
easy root penetration:

[url]http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/PublishedArticles/NewsArticles/News10.html[/url]

(The image of nightcrawlers dragging soon-to-be
earthworm castings down into their burrows
is not soon forgotten.)

Not to belittle the Earl Hole method of
tomato bed preparation, of course. Whatever
works for you.... And not everyone has soil that
is amenable to a mulch-instead-of-till method.

Good opportunity for an experiment: cover crop,
weed-eater, mulch instead of till a section
of bed, till-and-posthole another section
that gets comparable sunlight, top dress
anything that you till in to the "till" section
on top of the "no-till" section (preferably
in fall, so that worms and other soil organisms
have time to bring it down to the root zone
before you plant next spring),
and grow 4 or more plants of the same cultivar
in each section.

If the no-till approach works for you, you could
publish: "How To Turn A Craftsman Tiller Into A
Stump Grinder."

I am trying to dig deep because:

1. Although some say it will not have much benefit for the work involved, but I haven’t heard that it will do much harm.
2. I haven’t heard too many people have tried it.
3. Mostly because I plant tomatoes very very tight, 18” apart due to the lack of space.
4. I know I do not have good soil below 18”.

Regarding this crazy digger which I made:

1. I don’t have room to store another machine which I use infrequently.
2. I don’t want to spend $400 to $500 for a digger.
3. It’s throttle speed driven, so I can control the speed of the auger from 0 to full speed.
4. It’s clutch/gear driven so there is no chain to be broken.
5. You may notice that the auger bit is actually an ice fishing auger, which cuts less aggressively down.
6. I looked at commercial one-man operated gas auger designs; the mechanical leverage is about 30”. In my contraption, it’s about 50” so I will have a lot less twist/torque to deal with..

In any case, if it doesn’t work, I will be happy to lend it to you guys in one of your Choptag/Tomatopalooza events to make spaghetti sauce.

dcarch :wink:

Re: Dig this. Dig I must.
 

[quote=dcarch]I converted my rototiller to an earth digger to help me dig deep. [/quote]

Geek.

1. I'm jealous you're able to till to a depth of *18* inches. That must be a helluva tiller ... wait, the one you converted to an auger doesn't look like the monster tiller I'm imagining. Either you have >= two tillers, or ... you can get 18" down with the hand tiller??

2. Yeah yeah, if you till, the earthworms are crushed, the mycorrhizae get angry, and the soil crosses its arms and gives you the silent treatment. You know what? It all comes back! Fast!

I will never argue till vs no-till. I have both tilled and non-tilled gardens, and you know what? Both host great vegetables. Both methods work!

3. Catching fish, and burying them at the bottom of a hole. Hmmph. I'm glad I'm at the top of the food chain, that's for sure.

J

PS: What do you think about replacing
the other set of blades with some kind
of flywheel (part of an old weight-lifting
set, maybe) that weighs the same as the
posthole-digging extension? That should
improve fuel efficiency and stability.

(I am also remembering hand-drills that
I ruined putting side pressure on a bit to
make a hole bigger or oblong, or trying
to use one with a rotary rasp. Your tiller
clearly has fairly hefty bearings at the
cutting end, but they were perhaps not
designed for this amount of force
exerted in one direction perpendicular
to the drive shaft. OTOH, parts are
probably available if any bearings wear
out unexpectedly.)

You could test drive it drilling a hole beside
a tree with an old tire strapped to it. If it
gets away from you, the tree will limit the
travel, and the tire may save the tiller.

Edit: The hand-drills did not stop working
completely, the mistreatment simply
introduced a wobble into the bearings,
and they never drilled a hole the same
size as the installed bit afterwards.

This is what I have.
They are fast and I need the exercise.
You wanna race? :)
[url]http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Post-Hole-Digger---Fiberglass-Handles[/url]

Worth

[quote=Worth1]This is what I have.
They are fast and I need the exercise.
You wanna race? :)
[url]http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Post-Hole-Digger---Fiberglass-Handles[/url]

Worth[/quote]
[img]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i240/dcarch/Gusher2.jpg[/img]

dcarch :arrow: :lol:

Not to rain on your parade, but will the engine run correctly in that position? Just a thought. :-)

Just Curious. How do you stop the top part (motor, etc.) from spinning?

[quote=dcarch]
Regarding this crazy digger which I made:

1. I don’t have room to store another machine which I use infrequently.
2. I don’t want to spend $400 to $500 for a digger.
[/quote]

Second question, isn't there a local rental place that might rent safer equiptment that will accomplish the same task?

[quote=tomakers]Not to rain on your parade, but will the engine run correctly in that position? Just a thought. :-)[/quote]
Very good question. Not all small engines can operate when they are not in the proper position. This particular engine will operate if I fill the tank full.

Angelique,
If you are talking about the tines, they all will be removed so there will be no danger. I didn't get a chance to remove them for the pictures.
I intend to use it a couple of times a week for the whole year, so it will be very expensive to rent one.

The thing looks dangerous, I believe it is very safe. I am very careful with this knid of things.

dcarch

Just be safe. Take it from me, in November I had an accident with an immersion blender. Needless, to say, 5 stitches and a few months later, I have no feeling in the top portion of my right middle finger.

Angelique

P.S. DH is still finding spots of blood on the kitchen, living room, dining room and entrance walls and ceiling.

Thanks.

A friend get his fingers crushed by the car door. He lost feeling in his fingers after he recovered from the stitches. He finally went to a finger specialist. He now has most of the feelings back after a second surgery.

dcarch