Growing Beans - How Much, When, and How close?
 

I love dry beans for all sorts of recipes. I'd like to grow some dry pole types for this year and have a few questions. I know varieties vary in their production, and environmental factors shoud be considered, but is there any sort of rule of thumb for growing them such as for 1 lb dry beans, plant X number of plants? The varieties I have are:

True Red Cranberry
Hidatsa Shield
Good Mother Stallard
Mayflower

Since I have limited space, I thought poles would be best and I can put one setup here, one setup there, that sort of thing to avoid cross pollination and save seed as well. I'd like to get 3-5 lbs per variety if possible, dry.

I also have my green pole and purple podded poles to consider too. How far apart do you think beans need to be to avoid cross pollination? I was thinking of putting them in the new beds I'm going to build 12x3, 2 of them for tomatoes, along sides.

I also got a bush type, but have absolutely no idea where that one is going. As usual, I'll probably seed way more of everything than I have room for, ugh.

Also, last year I planted my pole beans kind of late. Should they go out same time as tomatoes?

Thanks!

Oh, and can I plant pole beans and bush beans near peas or will they be a problem?

Lakelady,

2 to 4 ounces is the general range I get for dry pole beans per plant. I'd guess
2 1/2 ounces is the average.

For me, True Red Cranberry has had the lowest production of the many, many dry bean varieties I've trialed. My guesstimate is about 1 oz/plant. I hope you get better results.

I wouldn't want to be the one to shell 3-5 lbs of Mayflower. It's productive, for me, but that seed is small!

I plant pole beans with 6" spacing, bush beans with 4". This is the recommended spacing for snaps. I wouldn't know if wider spacing would produce more dry seeds per foot of row. There's a tradeoff of more production per plant, but less plants.

Because of the frequent rain in 2011, for the first time, most of my bush varieties outproduced the pole types for dry seed. The bush plants were harvested earlier, before the relentless rains. Many of my pole dry beans never dried down. Some of them germinated in the pod. 2011 was the first year I had roots popping out of the pods.

I have a collection of about 200 varieties of pole & bush, snap, shelly, and dry. If you're looking for a variety, just ask.

Gary

Good thread. I've always grown pole snaps but never dried beans. Tormato, what is a good, productive dried bean for you?

It seems challenging to find any kind of dry beans that will produce in a short-season area (say 75 or so). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but with green beans they'll keep producing if you keep picking them, but with dry beans you need to leave the beans on until they are dry... right? So if that's true, it comes down to which type of plant will produce the most on the plant because they don't get to keep producing... right? Mostly I've only grown bush dry beans (and pole green beans) but wasn't pleased with the production of the bush plants at all. Last year, I tried Lingua di Fuoco (from Remy, sampleseeds.com) and they really produced a lot! I like that one because you can shell the beans and eat them fresh or wait until they dry. They filled out in a reasonable amount of time and kept producing until frost. I picked some green (and they seemed to keep producing) and let some dry on the plant. I planted them in a bed that I set up for "square foot gardening". I planted them 16 to a square (2" apart) along two sides of a 4' x 4' bed. I planted over a hundred plants. They did great. Suggestions as to other shorter season bush or pole dry beans would be most appreciated!

Jacob's Cattle is a fairly decent dry bush bean for production, flavor, and maturity.

My preferences seem to always be changing. I've got some Zuni Red beans in the freezer that are going to get planted this spring. They are near the top of good flavored beans that I've grown. I also have some Rio Zape that will go in this year too. Then I will plant a row of P10 Nuna beans because they are very pretty, very productive, and they pop like popcorn. I haven't even begun to plan other varieties after those. I need to grow some Turkey Craw, some Fortex, some Tobacco Worm, some Alabama #1, etc.

My current seed inventory is here though I will be adding about a dozen more varieties over the next 2 weeks.

[url]http://www.selectedplants.com/beanvarieties.htm[/url]

DarJones

Puttgirl,

My best producing pole dry bean, so far, is Uncle Walt's Vermont Cranberry. I trialed it in a year with near perfect weather. So, comparing it to trials of other dry beans, in not so great weather, doesn't tell me much. I do know that it's a very large bean, that's easy to shell, and is fairly early for a pole type. Tomatoaddict (Terry) , who sent me the seed, says they taste great. Picking height is just about perfect for me. Most pods are three to seven feet up the vine.

As for taste...well, I've yet to eat any of the dry bean varieties that I've trialed. I just harvest them to trade or give away. Maybe this year I'll finally get around to cooking some.

While I trial dry beans, ~95% of the bean plants in my garden are for fresh snaps.

Gary

I thought those were a bush bean, maybe uncle walt's isn't?

Just did a little search, I guess they are a pole bean. I couldn't find a source for them, though.:no:

:no:?

I'm a source. Send me a PM.


:D!

There is apparently considerable variation in pole bean dry seed yield. I use wider spacing for most pole beans - 12" between plants is my default. I grow many beans for seed, and (usually) record the results. My over-all average is over 6 ounces per plant, with some varieties more than twice that. A row of "Striped Cornfield" had an average of over 11 ounces per plant, and "Brita's Foot Long" averaged over 10 oz./plant. I've had single plants of several varieties yield nearly a pound of dry seed.

It's worth noting, though, that soil fertility has a major impact. I have 3 plots on two widely separated properties, and the same variety will perform differently in all 3 plots.

I grew a 20-foot row of "True Red Cranberry" (with 12" spacing) and wasn't terribly impressed by its yield either.

True Red Cranberry is highly climate sensitive. It yields next to nothing here in the deep south. I got the same results for Uncle Walts Vermont Cranberry.

It is fun to grow new varieties and see just how much they can produce.

Here is a list of varieties I have grown that have reasonable production in the deep south.
Alabama #1 - Very nematode tolerant, decent production, good canner
Blue Marbut - excellent production and an exceptional canning bean
Black Seeded Blue Lake - another good all around pole bean
Dade - an old commercial bean that is well adapted and productive, but I don't prefer the flavor
Emerite - Exceptionally good sweet flavor and decent canning bean
Fortex - exceptionally good in bean for production and decent flavor, a bit soft as a canner, great for fresh use
Grandma Roberts (black, brown, and white tricolor) pole bean - Good production, great flavor, but has strings.
Grandma Roberts Purple pole bean - Best of the purple beans for cool soil germination, production, and heat tolerance
Jeminez - a good eating bean but a bit coarse and not exceptional as a canner
Kilgore Black Shelling bean - good production, decent flavor, a good dual purpose bean for snaps and shellies
Leona Dillon creaseback - oddest shaped string bean I've grown, the beans are actually bent in the middle, very productive
Louisiana Purple - great production, but imo, so-so flavor
Meraviglia Venizia (white seeded) - good production for a yellow bean, flavor good, not a good canner, excellent in bean salad
Musica - best of the roma type pole beans I've grown, excellent production, excellent canner
Purple King - another great producer but so-so flavor
Rattlesnake - the hands down most heat tolerant bean, great production, decent flavor, decent canner
NT Half Runner - an excellent variety from Bill Best, productive, great flavor, good canner
Rose - good production, decent flavor, good as a shelly, one of the "frosted" beans
Striped Bunch - the best Dilly bean I've grown, a true 1/2 runner
Striped Hull Greasy Cutshort - the best flavored bean I've grown, but not very productive
Super Marconi - Highly productive, but imo, flavor is too intense, not a good canner
Tobacco Worm - an outstandingly good bean flavorwise, but not highly productive
Turkey Craw - Best quad purpose bean available, can be snapped, shelled, dried, and made into leather britches.


DarJones

You should try growing Anasazi beans. Certainly do better in heat than most other beans, and that definitely includes Kentucky Wonder. Don't have any idea if humidity would affect it adversely or not; my educated guess is, not.

I've always just grown grocery store specimens, which may not be that great an idea because of the cross-breeding thing. I've had grocery store specimens of Anasazi produce a bush version with occasional half-runners, basically indistinguishable from Jacob's Cattle, but if it produces the pole version, it produces abundantly. A bit late. Good for a green bean or a dry bean. Sometimes has a bit of a string if the pod gets old enough, but usually stringless.

I got some seed at the Food Co-Op last year that is from Dove Creek, the Colorado company that has the gall to somehow claim exclusive rights to use of the trademarked name they gave it. To me, the idea of trademarking a varietal name-- especially for an OP heirloom-- is nothing short of outright heresy. Their trademark is probably legally unenforceable, but it irks me that they'd even try.

Somewhere along the way, somebody concocted the fabulous story that it was grown out from archaeological specimens hundreds of years old, discovered in a sealed jar or some such, at a cliff dwelling or some such place, and and and... I don't believe it. Nobody's ever tried to document who was the discoverer. Don't ask me if Dove Creek themselves concocted the story. But it's a great bean, regardless of how it's almost certainly just a Southwestern heirloom that was little known until Dove Creek started marketing it.

Petronius, I have these on the schedule for this year.

Rio Zape
Zuni Red
Zuni Gold


I've tried the 1500 year old cave beans in the past and had very low production.

I hate to say it, but in my climate, cowpeas are far more reliable than most Phaseolus bean varieties.

DarJones

Wow this is hugely informative, so thanks everyone for your input. Last year I tried the Chinese foot long beans, and they did terribly for me, they were dried out tasting although productive. I also had Trionfo Violetta beans, and they were very productive for me. I plan on growing those again, along with the Super Marconi, and Favas. Since I don't have too much room I have to play around with some things to make room for more plants where I have full sun. Pole beans would be better with my limited space.

Dar, holy cow that is some huge list of beans! How long can you save seeds (viability?). I'm still trying to understand runners and half runners and greasy beans.

The True Red Cranberry beans will be planted because I think they are so pretty (look just like cranberries!), but I'll not expect too much in the way of production out of them. I actually do think I have some Jacob's cattle too, I'll look.

Can you really freeze bean seed for planting the following year? Do you freeze them in the pod or shelled? I just thought you had to dry them on the vine and then save them dried for the following year.

It will be fun to see what produces, how it grows, etc. My kids mostly like green beans, but I like dried beans a lot and favas :).

Beans should be shelled, dried thoroughly, then put in ziploc bags in the freezer for long term storage. I've had excellent results up to 5 years, acceptable germination up to 10 years, and very weak germination up to 15 years.

If you want to preserve long term germination better, they should be stored in glass jars in the freezer.

DarJones

I've seen photos of whatever variety somebody or another (a charlatan, if you ask me) was marketing as "1500 Year Old Cave Bean." They're not at all the same variety as Anasazi Pole Bean, which is a vigorous grower whose dry beans are almost identical to those of the bush bean Jacob's Cattle.

...Or at least [I]can[/I] be a vigorous grower under the right conditions. Obviously, all I can know is how well it does in a dry climate with long, warm or hot summers. l don't know for sure if it would tolerate "hot AND humid" so well, but it would be nice to find out.

Unfortunately, as I wrote above, there's been some apparent cross-breeding, or maybe somebody passing off Jacob's Cattle as Anasazi, and the only way one can be pretty sure of getting the vigorous pole strain is to buy beans from Dove Creek-- or somebody who has descendants of Dove Creek seed stock, which is what I hope to be in a season or two. I did write "unfortunately" above because I hate to patronize people with the gall to try to trademark a varietal name for an open-pollinated heirloom. I'm almost certain the Dove Creek people just "discovered" the variety they named Anasazi, much the same way Columbus quote "discovered" unquote the Americas. I'm pretty sure Dove Creek did nothing in particular to [I]improve [/I]Anasazi.

The bulk foods manager at the food co-op sort of feels the same way.

...But in any case, "1500 Year Old Cave Bean" (cough, cough) isn't the same bean.

[EDITED TO ADD:] I see now the name of the company with the trademark is Adobe Milling. Dove Creek, Colorado is the town.

Petronius, The rest of the story is that bakers creek carried 1500 year old cave bean about 8 years ago. I bought a pack from them in 2004. The beans were flat, shaped like a small lima, somewhat maroon speckled on a white background. They grew nice vines but did not set any beans. My climate is all wrong for them.

So with that said, there is a bean sometimes called Anasazi, but it looks almost identical to Zuni Red. There is a bean called Jacob's Cattle which is a nice productive bush bean. There is a small flat lima shaped bean called 1500 year old cave bean. Then there is a faux who knows what bean that is called 1500 year old cave bean but that is close to the bean named Anasazi. I haven't tried to straighten this mess out.

DarJones

Just a hopeful long shot..but is anyone out there growing genuine Greek Gigantes beans, aka Gigandes. I lost my stash this last year and cannot find true replacements, my original ones from many years ago came from Greece. I have seen "gigantes beans " but not the size of my original Elephant Gigantes. I would so much like to find a few to begin again. they are actually a white runner bean and are very very big.

XX Jeannine

Like these?

[URL]http://purcellmountainfarms.com/Gigandes.htm[/URL]


See the runner beans
[URL]http://www.selectedplants.com/SeedInventory.htm[/URL]

I'm not certain if these are genuine Gigandes, they are very similar to a large lima bean. They are HUGE.

DarJones

Fusion,

Have you ever grown Peregion dry bean? I just bought it on an impulse, based on a catalog description.

Judi

I did some more digging around and found hints here and there about Gigandes beans. For beginners, the bean identified as Gigandes on Purcellmountainfarms is clearly a lima similar to Big Mama as sold by Burpees.

[URL]http://www.burpee.com/vegetables/beans/lima/bean-lima-big-mama-prod000574.html[/URL]

From one source, there are 5 different varieties grown and sold as Gigandes. From another source, they can't be legally sold in Europe unless grown in a specific region of Greece. From a third source, some links showing what is supposed to be varieties that can be grown as Gigandes.

[URL]http://www.seedsofitaly.com/product/269[/URL]

And this one looks like the real deal.

[URL]http://www.rizosonline.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=43[/URL]

Here is a thread discussing them.

[url]http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=55025.0[/url]

DarJones

Hi Fusion, I have the ones from Purcell farms and also have had the Seeds from Italy ones,although they are Gigantesd neither are the size of the ones I am looking for. They are runners by the way not limas.

My original ones came from Greece and were the ones rated as Elephantes as they are the biggest variation but as you say they cannot be sold as Gigandes outside of their own area so it is extremely difficult to find replacements. I am also familiar with the chat on the other forum.

I bought beans from a Greek deli store here, they were genuine imported Greek gigandes but not the really extra big ones either,they were about an inch long though and I figured I would try them anyway but I could not get them to germinate. They were bigger than Purcell and Seeds from Italy though.

They are a runner bean for sure, not a lima as I know it, but as the word lima(and butter bean) means different things in different parts of the world it is difficult to explain that.

Sadly, there are several large white runners which are claimed to be re named Gigantes but so far I cannot find the size again.

Just as a bench mark, when the beans have been fully soaked they are an inch and half long easily.

I guess I need another trip to Greece, or a pen pal maybe ..

I appreciate the help offered very much

Thank you XX Jeannine

It took a LOT of digging, but I finally found a greek place that will ship Gigandes beans to the U.S. They are expensive, but I'm intrigued enough that I want to cook up a pot of them and see what they are like.

As a side note, I have some gigantic white runner beans that may be the same thing as the gigandes, but I don't have many of them and I would really like to try the beans, not just grow them.

I'll let you know when I receive the package which could take up to 3 weeks.

DarJones

Not sure these would interest you or not. They're not the Greek runners and not really flattened, more long ovoid like a giant borlotto bean... Anyhoo, what I'm getting around to saying is, Native Seeds/SEARCH has some really honkin' huge runner beans:

[URL]https://www.nativeseeds.org/index.php/store/20/2/seeds/nss-seed-collection/beans/runner-beans[/URL]

I know this may sound like a stupid question, but what exactly is a runner bean.

O.K. Me too. I have always wanted to ask.............

Ok, have fun with this. There are a LOT of twists to this story.

The bean family is divided up into about 50 species.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus[/url]

Among them is Phaseolus Vulgaris - the common bean we grow and eat.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_bean[/url]

Among other beans that we eat is Phaseolus Lunatus - the Lima group.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus_lunatus[/url]

And another that is grown in some areas where the climate is conducive is Phaseolus Coccineus - the runner bean.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean[/url]

The runner bean originated in Mexico but is not adapted to high temperatures. It is from high elevations typically growing and producing only at elevations of roughly 1 mile or more. It is adapted to cooler climate areas and is relatively day neutral compared to most tropical plants.

The plants are rampant and vigorous vining plants but there are bush varieties and there are half-runner types. The flowers are stupendous ranging from white to pink, shades of orange, red-orange, and brilliant scarlet.

While most runner beans cannot be grown in high temperatures such as here in North Alabama, I have been able to get a crop from Insuk's Wang Kong that approaches normal. This was done by planting the runner beans very early on the north side of a very tall row of corn, and encoraging very rapid growth. I was very happy to see them flowering and then setting beans in my garden.

DarJones

To the best of my recollection, from having a great experience years ago growing generic "Scarlet Runner" seeds from Northrup King or some such, it's not so much a matter of not growing during hot weather. It's a matter of flowering. They most likely won't flower much until the weather cools down.

My runner beans got shade during part of the day, too. Backyard gardeners who want to experiment with runner beans would do well to consider putting up a trellis close to a wall or fence that runs north-south and will shade the beans for almost half the day. If a concrete etc. wall that will absorb heat and give back, I would advise putting the beans on the east side of any such wall, and several feet away.

I doubt that altitude per se necessarily has all that much effect. But then, I live in "the Other Mile High City," so what do I know?

My Scarlet Runners were trellised onto a wooden fence about 5 1/2 feet high to the top of the trellis. When they got to the top, they just flopped down in front and kept on growing, almost back to the ground for some vines. Seeds planted about 4 inches apart, kept well watered and never pruned. With that close spacing, they formed something resembling a dense, flat hedge. Gorgeous whenever a lot of flowers were in bloom at the same time. The beans get pretty fibrous at the larger sizes.

Hi Fusio..ha ha, so I have peeked your curiosity, I am well pleased.I will keep my fingers crossed that they germinate for you and hopefully they may even be the really big ones. I have just about given up searching for them now and wiol have to ne contaent woth regular size gigandes I suspect.

My fave thing to cook is the traditional Gigandes Plaki, lots of recipes around but I will send you mine if you get stuck. I just adore them cooked in this traditional way and the recipe makes a great buffet dish served at room temp.Sometimes I will add some thin sliced smoked sausage but that is totally against tradition, and sometimes I make them a bit hot with an extra chili bite which changes them again..but the basic Plaki is probably best. I would love to know how you get

I do find when I buy the dry deli beans they are often cracked and damaged which is one reasin I prefer to grow them myself so you may want to find a few perfect ones and have a go an germinating them.

I have a good collection of runner bean varieties, this year I am planting a mixed row, all differnt colured blossom, they will grow to about 10 feet reliably so it should be quite a show. I have black seeded ones, white and multi.

Half runners are not true runner beans for anyone new to them. There are two really easy ways of being sure. 1. The first leaves up when sown are true leaves, the cotyledons remain under the ground which is very differnet to other beans and it something that can ve seen very early on. 2, When viewed from above they twine clockwise, other beans twine anto clockwise, so they can be easily seen when growing if you are not sure what you have.

They are perennial in some areas although it has never worked for me in Canada or the UK, and the roots which are like little tubers are edible but as yet I have not eaten them. They are best picked young as they do get fibrous as they get very large.

They make a truly wonderful display and are worth growing for the show alone.

They are self pollinating by the way, but need "tripping" in order to so do, usually a bee or humming bird etc landing on them is enough but they don't need the bees to pollinate them. In fact the bees can be a nuisance as they have been known tyo nibble through the enclosed flower to get to the nectar and by doing so allowing them to cross pollinate with other runner varieties.

I love runner beans and hve been building up me collection of varieties for a long time, always happy to hear from anyone to swap by the way.

As thr thread stared about spacing etc it is appropriate here to say about 4-6 inches apart for pole runner beans. The few varieties that are not tall growing are very dwarf and can be closer palnted even in pots.


Maybe we should have a runner bean thread?

PS sorry fot the typhos but I am ill in bed and struggling a bit.
XX Jeannine

Jeannine Anne,

I have only a couple of gigandes, and last year they did not germinate, for me. I'm going to try the rest of them this year.

These things are so large, I've heard that some people bread them before baking.

Gary