Purple underneath seedling leaves, then they curl up and die
 

Hello,

I apologize for the abruptness of this post, but I'd just finished typing up a good one and my computer ate it. It ate a good deal of my patience at the same time.

My situation is as follows. I have 40 seedlings that are of various ages, mainly around 2 weeks old since transplanting up to 6" pots. The vast majority of the seedlings are exhibiting an deep purple color on the underside of their leaves. I've had this in the past and it's never been an issue (not major in any case). I've read it might have something to do with phosphate uptake issues, which can have to do with (a) no phosphate or (b) cold soil temps or (c)...? In any case, I've got very warm temps in my grow room (68F-85F) and I'm using what I've read is fairly rich FoxFarms Ocean Forest /Floor potting mix (1 part Light Warrior, 3/4 part Ocean Floor).

I wouldn't write this thread if it were only a problem of purple (underside) leaves, but it's more than that. Yesterday I noticed wilting on the first set of true leaves on one of my seedlings, and within 1-2 hours those leaves (/w branch) had curled up and atrophied from the main stem. Since then, five more plants have followed suit. The rest of the plant seems healthy, but this scares me.

I've attached pics showing this condition on a couple of the seedlings. I'm afraid the problem will move on up to the next set of leaves and so on. Any ideas what this could be? Should I do something? If so, what?

Note, until this morning I hadn't added any fertilizer or additives, other than an application of Actinovate/MycoGrow/BiotaMax (all mycos) and Roots Excelurator. Those are all quite benign. This morning, I watered with a very dilute fish/kelp extract, hoping to perhaps add some N and P to the mix. I leave an oscillating fan directed at the seedlings for 1/2 the light day, which is currently set at ~16-18 hours a day (dark the rest).

Any questions I can answer to help diagnosis this syndrome, please let me know.

Thanks all!
-naysen

Naysen,
Have you tried "Exel LG" or "Agri Fos".
Dutch

Naysen,

You can see in a couple of the photos where the branches / leaves are sharply pointing upwards. That, coupled with the wilted leaves is indicative of stress, frequently caused by fertilization. There is plenty of necessary fertilizer embedded within the Ocean Forest, which according to Fox Farm will last 2 months without the need for additional fertilizer.

Seedlings do not need additional additives at this point in their life cycle. I think you are hitting them with too much "stuff" in their infancy.

Raybo

[QUOTE=Dutch;259723]Naysen,
Have you tried "Exel LG" or "Agri Fos".
Dutch[/QUOTE]
Dutch, no I have not yet, mainly because I haven't been able to find a place to purchase other than online with a nice $10+ dollar shipping hike. What makes you think this issue is one of systemic fungal attack or the like?

Thanks for posting,
Naysen

Check your watering. At this stage, seedlings should be let dry out enough that they just start to wilt. This encourages the roots to grow and keeps phytothora (damping off) from killing the plant.

DarJones

[QUOTE=rnewste;259728]Naysen,

You can see in a couple of the photos where the branches / leaves are sharply pointing upwards. That, coupled with the wilted leaves is indicative of stress, frequently caused by fertilization. There is plenty of necessary fertilizer embedded within the Ocean Forest, which according to Fox Farm will last 2 months without the need for additional fertilizer.

Seedlings do not need additional additives at this point in their life cycle. I think you are hitting them with too much "stuff" in their infancy.

Raybo[/QUOTE]

Ray, but remember, I'm using 3 parts Ocean Forest to 4 parts Light warrior, so less than half. Moreover, all this started setting on before I hit the plants with anything. Now, as of this morning, I did water with a dilute mix of liquid kelp and fish, but everything I've read suggests that's a standard "play" at this age in the seedling's life-cycle.

When I got home tonight, I found another four seedlings in similar straights. I also found a couple that looked on the precipice, and the leaves that started wilting were a deep, deep purple. It seems the unaffected leaves are less purple farther up the plant stem and on the healthier ones. I have to figure this is somehow tied to the purple color on the underside of the leaves. Other than phosphorus deficiency, are there any other conditions that purple on the underside of seedling leaves signals?

Thanks,
Naysen

Ok DarJones, you're right about that. I've learned the hardway what happens with over-watering. I've been watering about every three days and only 1.5 squirts from a standard turkey baster. I have two moisture meters and both read bone dry (a quick spike to 2 on insertion then back to .5/1 stabilized) at the point of watering. A couple times now, the plants were wilting due to lack of water, but you're right, they perk right back up after a little liquid. Can over-watering result in a deep purple color on the reverse of seedling leafs? I know I seem fixated on that color issue, but it's just striking how the color intensity increases on the dying leafs.

Thanks,
Naysen

[SIZE=2]Naysen I'm not so sure that it is a fungal attack, since reading Raybo comments. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I've checking some things like maybe the roots excelurator is too hot.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Please see the attached MSDS below.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Number 2 is missing Potash info[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Number 12 Growth Stimulator: high concentrations may cause plant burns.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Dutch[/SIZE]

Naysen,

A suggestion when potting up your next series of plants. Add in about 25% Perlite into the Light Warrior / Ocean Forest Mix. What I observed when potting up in the Ocean Forest was that it stays too moist alone. 3 scoops Mix along with 1 scoop Perlite in the mixing bucket provides for good drainage.

Again, it is not normal for the leaves to be pointing up almost vertical. Something is not in harmony when this happens.

Raybo

[QUOTE=z_willus_d;259737]Dutch, no I have not yet, mainly because I haven't been able to find a place to purchase other than online with a nice $10+ dollar shipping hike. What makes you think this issue is one of systemic fungal attack or the like?

Thanks for posting,
Naysen[/QUOTE]

The reason a fungal attack came to mind was the fact that you had problem with "damping off' which is caused by one of a half a dozen of fungal diseases earlier in the year. It has been my experience that Exel LG or Agri Fos takes care of most the fungal diseases that cause damping off.
If you use Exel LG or Agri Fos mix it half strengh. Like 1 tablespoon per gallon.
Dutch

Thanks Dutch, I'll keep that in mind if I ever manage to procure the fungicide. I will sooner or later when I decide to bite the bullet on the shipping cost.
-naysen

Ray, not all the plants (even of those that have suffered) have upward pointing leaves, and many have downward curling leafs. I agree that adding a bit of Perlite to the mix couldn't hurt. I'm not so sure they plants are over damp, but I will not rule it out.

I was in the process of writing a response to Dutch's penultimate post, but my computer again crashed. My wife demands food, so that rewrite will have to wait.

Thanks all for the help.
-naysen

[QUOTE=Dutch;259742][SIZE=2]Naysen I'm not so sure that it is a fungal attack, since reading Raybo comments. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I've checking some things like maybe the roots excelurator is too hot.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Please see the attached MSDS below.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Number 2 is missing Potash info[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Number 12 Growth Stimulator: high concentrations may cause plant burns.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Dutch[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Dutch, I want to thank you for passing along the disclosure form for the House and Garden Excelurator product. I knew it had trace amounts of NPK, but hadn't seen the rest. After potting the seedling up Feb. 25, I administered a half-strength (1/4 tsp = ~.5ml per Gal) application of the Roots Excelurator product. I haven't applied any since that time, despite the instructions, which indicate the product should be applied regularly. On 3/3/12 I applied the following Myco products (my notes):
"Mixed 1TBS Blackstrap Molasses, 1/4 tsp Actinovate, 1/4 tsp MycoGrow, 1/2 tsp Great White, and a few crumbs of BiotaMax tab with 1 gal of water. Each pot got 1.5 squirts.?"

Other than the above, the seedlings received a half-strength dose of liquid kelp/fish with their watering this morning. That's all they've received. Other than the fish/kelp (2-1-1), I don't believe any of the products I administered are a significant source for N/P/K. I'm not ruling over-fertilization out, but I'd like to understand just how it could happen based on my records of what the plants received.

The only other possibility I can think of is that many of the seedlings that have exhibited the issue are under an LED light. I grew my dwarf seedling up under the same light earlier last year, so I don't think it's completely to blame. I still like to understand the correlation of purple with the necrotic leafs.

Best and have a good evening all.
-naysen

Naysen, did you pull up any of the affected seedlings and look at the roots? If they are not white and healthy, there's something wrong down below. I agree with Raybo, they certainly look stressed. I'd lay off any ferts, it might be aggravating the problem, they shouldn't need anything at that size considering the mix you are using. Purpling under the leaves and necrosis would indicate a serious phosphorus uptake problem at the roots, but what is causing it is the question. If it's not cold soil then acidic conditions or wet feet are other possibilities.
I had a problem last year with some seedlings where the cotyledons wound start to turn brown at the tips and then the whole cot would turn black and die. No purple under the true leave though. Those seedlings just withered away and died Never got an answer on that one, just chalked it up to the mysterious crud disease.

Naysen - Just a thought, ask your wife if she has any Cinnamon and dust some of your remaining seedlings and mix with it and see if they succumb too. Cinnamon is a natural fungicide and helps where Damping Off is a problem.

Too rich dirt, Too fast growing, I never fertilize before the last week before going in grown.Then very weak fish fertilizer feed from the bottom of small pots. Never water from top as you are doing now

Nathan, I have read reports on various forums that Ocean Forest is to hot (Fert Wise) for seedlings. I use Light Warrior only in Cow Pots and the seedlings love it. The last thing they need right now is more ferts. As far as the "DIP" is concerned you don't need it until you plant your seedlings to their final resting place. The Light Warrior has more than enough PGPR (Plant Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria) and ferts in the mix to last till you get ready to plant the seedlings which for me are usually 6 weeks old.

I know where you are comming from my friend but you need to throttle back and let the plants get established before adding amendments. Ami

[QUOTE=RayR;259760]Naysen, did you pull up any of the affected seedlings and look at the roots? If they are not white and healthy, there's something wrong down below. I agree with Raybo, they certainly look stressed. I'd lay off any ferts, it might be aggravating the problem, they shouldn't need anything at that size considering the mix you are using. Purpling under the leaves and necrosis would indicate a serious phosphorus uptake problem at the roots, but what is causing it is the question. If it's not cold soil then acidic conditions or wet feet are other possibilities.
I had a problem last year with some seedlings where the cotyledons wound start to turn brown at the tips and then the whole cot would turn black and die. No purple under the true leave though. Those seedlings just withered away and died Never got an answer on that one, just chalked it up to the mysterious crud disease.[/QUOTE]
Ray, I'm a little shy about pulling up the seedlings at this point, as even on the many plants that are experiencing leaf necrosis, I still find the rest of the plant seems reasonably healthy. I should probably post a few more pictures of the seedling population in general. I'll try to do that later. I'll not feed the plants anything but water. BTW, I thought FoxFarms Light Warrior was a fairly low intensity starting medium (not hot). That's the larger component of my grow media. I'll keep a close eye out for damp feet (as well as add more Perlite to the next batch of pots per Ray N.'s suggestion). I haven't tested the pH, but I'm relying on the FoxFarms folks to keep the pH in the range they advertise, which should be perfect for tomatoes. I'll double check them on it soon.

Thanks, Naysen

[QUOTE=mcsee;259761]Naysen - Just a thought, ask your wife if she has any Cinnamon and dust some of your remaining seedlings and mix with it and see if they succumb too. Cinnamon is a natural fungicide and helps where Damping Off is a problem.[/QUOTE]
MCSee, Ok. I'll try this on the next seedling to show signs, which I'm sure I'll have the moment I peek through the door this morning (haven't yet checked on them.) I'm not so sure that I'm dealing with "damping-off" or fungus, but it's possible. Roughly how much dust do you spread -- a tsp? Do you mix with water or just sprinkle over?
Thanks,
Naysen

[QUOTE=FILMNET;259766]Too rich dirt, Too fast growing, I never fertilize before the last week before going in grown.Then very weak fish fertilizer feed from the bottom of small pots. Never water from top as you are doing now[/QUOTE]
Filmnet, I had encountered the problem before adding any fert, and it's just been one half-strength dose of kelp/fish. I wasn't planning on any more fertilizer for at least a month. Folks are suggesting even less, and I'll follow the advice.

Now I have been watering from the top with a baster to evenly spread. There are 40 seedlings all crammed into my grow room, and time is somewhat short with a new kid and a busy job. Were I to bottom water every plot, it would take hours transferring them out to the garage and back. If I am very diligent about watering the plants only when they need water, is there any major disadvantage to top watering over bottom? I realize, it does mean that one can more easily over-water.
Thanks,
Naysen

[QUOTE=amideutch;259792]Nathan, I have read reports on various forums that Ocean Forest is to hot (Fert Wise) for seedlings. I use Light Warrior only in Cow Pots and the seedlings love it. The last thing they need right now is more ferts. As far as the "DIP" is concerned you don't need it until you plant your seedlings to their final resting place. The Light Warrior has more than enough PGPR (Plant Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria) and ferts in the mix to last till you get ready to plant the seedlings which for me are usually 6 weeks old.

I know where you are comming from my friend but you need to throttle back and let the plants get established before adding amendments. Ami[/QUOTE]
Ami-

Ok, no more Mycos, root excelurators, or week ferts. Just water. I had seen a recent TV post ([url]http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=21465[/url]) with a lot of seedling eye-candy, and I got hooked on the idea of using Ocean Forest. Damon used 100% Ocean Forest on those beautiful tomato seedlings (no amendments beyond). I thought the soil seemed to heavy and rich, so I mixed it with 4 part Light Warrior, 3 parts Ocean Forest. I figured, I would give the seedlings 1 does of the various amendments I have and then a 2nd before transplanting to ground in several weeks. I never planned on adding a dilute kelp/fish application but decided to at the last moment based on my readings about phosphate deficiency and purple leaves; several folks mentioned they fed with fish and/or kelp and saw the problem go away or recede.

I have a 2nd wave of seedlings to pot up in a week or two, so I'll try zero amendments on those and it will be easy to compare results.

Thanks,
Naysen

Nayson- I too think you are "over loving" those babies. I really dont know what I am doing, have no light set up, use jiffy pellets and top water. Despite this I routinely produce 150-200 tomato seedlings that look like small trees and grow well. My babies go outside in natural light unless it is pouring rain or under 50 degrees. Then I carry them inside and place them all around a full spectrum type Ott light as much as is possible until I go to bed. I dont fert at all until they are at least a several weeks old and then very lightly. They do get a little purple sometimes if it is really cold but they seem to outgrow it. Occasionally I will lose one, or a grasshopper will take the top off one but other than that, this works well in my climate. Try it! :)

Linda, I'd say you're loving enough. All that toting back and forth to give them natural sun, that's love my dear. :) I've always sprouted my seedlings with at least some amount of sunlight, but these pots are getting 100% artificial, albeit the best money can buy. Maybe I should drag them out this weekend to get some of the real stuff. (danger there is always that they pic up something bad in the air.)
Thanks, Naysen

Nayson, yep I love those babies!:love: First time my grown daughter came to my small, no garage house last year I had nearly 300 seedlings, inside everywhere! She dubbed me "the plant hoarder." I do think the outside toughens them up some. My babies dont have the extensive leafy green of plants I see at the big box stores but they have a much stronger stem, and the important thing: they grow well and I get maters! :D

The purple on the underside is usually produced by cold soil. It will disappear and not have and significant impact on the plant once you transplant.

Try leaving your fan off for a few days, those leaves look wind beaten. I have that happen some when hardening off. Believe me, I live in a windy locale, and that is what some of the leaves look like.

The purple will go away after a few weeks in warm sunshine. I like to use a mix of 3 parts potting mix and 1 part earthworm castings. Works great.

[QUOTE=velikipop;260160]The purple on the underside is usually produced by cold soil. It will disappear and not have and significant impact on the plant once you transplant.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the cold soil explanation is what I read too. Sadly, I've measured my soil all hours of the day and night and have never come up with a temperature less than 65F. I have a nice meat thermometer that's been drafted to the cause. The room stays at above 68F due to the lights, etc.

Must be something else.
Thanks for posting the info.
-naysen

[QUOTE=creister;260179]Try leaving your fan off for a few days, those leaves look wind beaten. I have that happen some when hardening off. Believe me, I live in a windy locale, and that is what some of the leaves look like.

The purple will go away after a few weeks in warm sunshine. I like to use a mix of 3 parts potting mix and 1 part earthworm castings. Works great.[/QUOTE]
Creister, I too love the castings, but this year I decided no ?-marks (and fresh casting can be that with the bio-activity and all). So I stuck with the best of the best potting mix for the baseline. I have been running the fans about half the time the light's on (18-hours). I'll try cutting that time in half and only blowing each rack for a couple hours at night. Thanks for the tip.
-naysen

[B][SIZE=2]This is from D. Jones Site[Fusion Power] (Selectedplants.com) Ami[/SIZE][/B]

[B][SIZE=+1]Help! My seedlings are turning purple, what do I do?[/SIZE][/B] This is usually a result of some combination of cool temperatures, low phosphorus or micronutrients, and too much light. Some varieties seem to do this routinely. High Anthocyanin varieties have naturally purple leaves and stems. Purple color usually appears on the seed leaves, not so much on the true leaves. Eventually the plants grow out of it. The best solution is to use a good micronutrient supplement with extra phosphorus to water with. You can also toss a handful of rusty nails in a jug of water and use it to water the seedlings. They seem to like the extra iron. Consider also the water source you are using. If it is clorinated or has an excess of salt, it can build up in the pots and cause serious problems. You could try flushing the pots by deliberately overwatering till it leaches the contaminants from the soil. Immediately follow up with a nutrient supplement if you do this as it will also leach most of the nitrogen from the soil. You might also consider spraying with seaweed emulsion. If you are keeping the plants under 24 hour lights, turn them off for 8 hours per day. For growing in a greenhouse, see "What effect do gases such as ozone, ethylene, and natural gas have on tomatoes?"

Ami-

Good stuff. I had read about the cold temps and the low P, but I hadn't encountered the micronutrients and light angles. I'm fairly certain the seedlings aren't suffering for micronutrients, but light that's something else. I am hitting them with a very intense T5 light for 18 hours a day. Perhaps that would explain the purple color. What D. Jones don't say is whether too much of the purple color syndrome can result in leaf necrosis of the type I'm seeing. I suppose I should start cutting the lights out some. Maybe move from an 18-on/6-off to a 14-on/10-off.

Thanks!
Naysen