[QUOTE=SpookyShoe;330937]I see you grow tomatoes in central Arkansas. My in-laws live in El Dorado and it was there that I met a friend of my in-laws who was growing a tomato he called Indian Stripe. He had a fabulous garden and always saved his own seed. I sent some of the seed to Carolyn, and because of her, the this tomato is widespead now.

My father-in-law, who is 94, remembers the tomato Marglobe being grown in his parents' garden. He has also commented that the tomato Bradley was very popular in the area for family consumption and to sell at market.

Donna[/QUOTE]

Thank you for sending Indian Stripe to Carolyn and her for spreading it around. It is my must grow tomato every year and probably my most successful heirloom of the hundreds of varieties I have tried.

Bill

I also think Indian Stripe as sold by Gleckler is the same as in Victory, ultimately from you and Carolyn. Thank you for that. I also have seeds. As long as that's clear, there's nothing wrong with having two names for closely related tomatoes, that may have the same origin.

[QUOTE=GunnarSK;333102]I also think Indian Stripe as sold by Gleckler is the same as in Victory, ultimately from you and Carolyn. Thank you for that. I also have seeds. As long as that's clear, there's nothing wrong with having two names for closely related tomatoes, that may have the same origin.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the variety was called either Indian Stripe OR Indian Zebra, and if you going to comment on the fact that some believe that the original name was Indian Stripe b'c that's what some seeds in a freezer said, well, if it was called either, then what's labelled IZ is thesame as IS, so why some want to claim the original name was IZ, and that's what they're going to call it from seedslabelled IZ,that escapes me totally. One year save seeds and label them IS, a few years later, save seeds and label them IZ. Which is probably what Burson Sr.did.

No orginal name, for it was called both and you know the rest of the story in detail as does Donna, who posted in this thread as well

But let us NOT continue posting about this topic here in this thread, please, b'c it's been discussed to death, resurrected, discussed again, etc, since 2003 when I first listed IS in the SSE Yearbook and sent seeds to many seed places.:)

Carolyn

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;328102]I find very unfortunate and sad, actually that this is being spun as jealousy. Someone sounds like they have a North Korea complex.

[I][B]Steve's problem is with theft, I think that was outlined clearly[/B][/I]. If you look back onto another forum which was an offshoot for only tomatoes; things have been said along similar lines, which effectively spelled the demise of said forum. There's so much swapping going on of crosses; it's easy for an individuals to swipe someone elses work. This is a good lesson for us all; don't swap unless you want your work possibly stolen. That, or in better business arrangements, get a reciprocal contract.

Good on Bill for being truthful about his crosses. My problem is I was deceived on purpose about something I was given. Again, this has been outlined clearly over time - which others also echoed similar sentiments. Now I won't grow it or sell because I might as well start selling "Sungolds" as "surf4grrls orange" or "Mortgage Lifter" as "Enormous red giant".

Not everyone is going to get along and like each other, but please let's at least start with being honest about we are actually growing, who we got it from, not re-naming stuff that isn't yours, not taking someone else work and claiming credit - I think you all get the point.

I appreciate crosses and breeding and will buy those seeds, but only from reputable sellers. This isn't the issue. It's about what I feel is deliberate deception and theft in order to race to the top of the very non-existent "king of all tomatoes" or some such asinine nonsense.[/QUOTE]

I'll buy that, [I][B]IF[/B][/I] something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.

[QUOTE=PaddyMc;333290]I'll buy that, [I][B]IF[/B][/I] something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.[/QUOTE]

I think you have to go back to a couple of other threads but the stolen part I believe is in reference to pictures. Two different issues have been melded into one statement. I don't know if he was referring to his own photos or the practice that some vendors have of using any picture they can find on the Internet.

[QUOTE=PaddyMc;333290]I'll buy that, [I][B]IF[/B][/I] something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.[/QUOTE]

PaddyMc, you are casting aspersions onto what Steve said with respect to stealing, when in fact you know little of the history but a one sided version of events. I think you are a late comer to this discussion and as someone relatively new the site where you "roost" (I think you joined the private "North Korea site" :D as I was leaving), with no knowledge of the entire history of this - I think you better do some fact checking with all sides before you give your opinion. I tried taking this up with the powers that be - we all did - and got little but shuck and jive responses.

I have nothing against you, but you are only relying on one-sided gossip.

I was there and I do know what happened with respect to my own story. & Steve is no way, shape, or form jealous - if you look at prior boards we were all on - you'd understand this.

Steve is one of the more-than-generous-guys I know and shame on you for suggesting otherwise. I mean really.

If you think Steve has been the only one ripped off (ie stolen from) I suggest you do some homework first - and talk to just a few of the offended parties rather than the offending ones.

But thanks for your 2 cents, I think.

[QUOTE]I think you have to go back to a couple of other threads but the stolen part I believe is in reference to pictures. Two different issues have been melded into one statement. I don't know if he was referring to his own photos or the practice that some vendors have of using any picture they can find on the Internet. [/QUOTE]And this, I already offered proof with picture - those segregants show sweet Beverly and sweet sharon, in 2011 - the very first year I grew them out.

Tell me, PaddyMc - did we all have magical crosses that year?

I suggest you ask the Great OZ, where the last tomato board is, we were all on the tanked. Maybe he'll give you the link to show that history. Maybe not, is what I think.

What everyone was given and grew and shared was there. You can see for yourself. & you can see what was stolen - the H series etc.

[U][B]In fact, if you look closely the Great Oz only started his first cross in 2010. Most of his sidekicks too. In fact, most of us but for 5 or 6, like Bill, Keith, Dar and the rest.[/B][/U]

Print don't lie!

Now I have no truck with you, but we've explained ourselves plenty with proof.

I still don't see what was stolen. Where is the "H" series on Mariannas? Where are any of them? I'm offended that you don't think that I can think for MYSELF, surf4grrl. The only version of events I have is Steve's here and at another forum, and the responses to that thread. I have no dog in this fight. The fact that I appreciate the opportunity to learn from as many of my fellow growers as possible, and therefore am a member of darn near every forum I can find is just that. You've been a member here 4 months longer than me. Maybe there's something important that I missed in those 4 months, but I've read a lot of back posts on this site, and the others which I think it's against the forum rules to name, and I haven't seen any evidence of theft, other than of pictures by Pepper Joe. I'm genuinely asking to be educated, and at the same time standing up for the principal that all people are innocent until proven guilty. Even on the internet, I think it's lame to say "YOU'RE GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!" and then when someone asks "Why?" to say, "BECAUSE THEY'RE GUILTY!" That's why this forum has a rule against personal attacks (which in my opinion has been violated multiple times in this thread, but that's a different subject). No one should be able to disparage other, good people without evidence. If Steve was wronged, he deserves justice. If he wasn't it was wrong of him to disparage someone else. I'm just saying that the reason some people read this as jealousy is that I've only seen vague references to theft instead of people saying "this specific variety was mine, and now it's being sold as X". Maybe since you have access to those old threads, you can take this opportunity to educate me and point out these thefts. I'm more than willing to have my mind changed on this, but I'd like some actual examples.
I have no truck with you either, but I refuse to simply except the idea that people who I have only seen to be good, are bad, just because someone else says so.

If you feel this is a more appropriate conversation to have in PM, feel free to PM me.

I think it's time to step back and reflect as to where this thread is going right now.

This is not the time nor the place to discuss such personal issues involving specific persons. I could see some wanting to transfer threads from another place to here, and then that would cause yet more discussion and that's not the purpose of this thread if you go back to the first post made.

Paddy, thanks for suggesting that surfgirl could PM you, b/c that's the way I think this latest discussion should go.

Thanks to all in advance for your cooperation .

Carolyn

[QUOTE=carolyn137;333434]I think it's time to step back and reflect as to where this thread is going right now.

This is not the time nor the place to discuss such personal issues involving specific persons. I could see some wanting to transfer threads from another place to here, and then that would cause yet more discussion and that's not the purpose of this thread if you go back to the first post made.

Paddy, thanks for suggesting that surfgirl could PM you, b/c that's the way I think this latest discussion should go.

Thanks to all in advance for your cooperation .

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

sounds good

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;333376]I already offered proof with picture - those segregants show sweet Beverly and sweet sharon, in 2011 - the very first year I grew them out.
Print don't lie![/QUOTE]The most famous example of an "instable" = heterozygous tomato is Green Doctors, which was found by Amy Goldman on a "Dr Carolyn" plant.
[quote=carolyn137]The second event was when Amy Goldman found GWR fruits on a plant of the variety Dr. Carolyn, which is a whitish/pale yellow. I never asked her if it was one GWR on the plant, which would speak to a somatic mutation, or all fruits on that plant were GWRipes.

And the taste if both Dr. Carolyn is very good as was the taste of this GWR and she named it Green [B][COLOR=#ff0000]Doctors[/COLOR][/B]. I didn't understand what had happened so this time I asked someone who is an expert on tomato genetics and he came back with a very plausible detailed description of how that could have happened.[/quote]
I think it was Carolyn herself who suggested, that this might be a cross rather than mutation, because a light-skinned ("clear" epidermis) variant (Green Doctors Frosted) appeared independently in three different people's growout. Now both GD and GDF are being sold by several vendors. At least Baker Creek tells honestly, that they don't sell pure Green Doctors seed, only a mix of GD and GDF. To sell "pure" = homozygous Green Doctors seed you'd have to do a growout of at least 11 plants (or more depending on required/desired confidence level) from each "mother" and bag blooms.

Gunnar, that's all fine and good and I understand crosses.

However, using your assertion that this is a cross, why was one of the segregants which i had, which is obviously sweet sharon offered as a new variety? In fact, it was sold as a "mutation", remember? I sure do.

It would've been progeny of the cross, no? And would require stabilization - not be offered a few months after the cross was found. One of those segregants in my photo matches sweet sharon exactly.

[QUOTE=GunnarSK;333822]The most famous example of an "instable" = heterozygous tomato is Green Doctors, which was found by Amy Goldman on a "Dr Carolyn" plant.

I think it was Carolyn herself who suggested, that this might be a cross rather than mutation, because a light-skinned ("clear" epidermis) variant (Green Doctors Frosted) appeared independently in three different people's growout. Now both GD and GDF are being sold by several vendors. At least Baker Creek tells honestly, that they don't sell pure Green Doctors seed, only a mix of GD and GDF. To sell "pure" = homozygous Green Doctors seed you'd have to do a growout of at least 11 plants (or more depending on required/desired confidence level) from each "mother" and bag blooms.[/QUOTE]

Gunnar, I'll try to clarify.

At the time I'd never heard of a so called white/ivory fruit, in this case Dr. Carolyn, going to a green when ripe, so I asked Keith Mueller about it and he came back and explained how it could happen, and I'm sure I still have that PM somewhere since I'm bad and tend not to delete them.

And that white to green or green to white was then confirmed for me when I was growing three plants of Cherokee Green for seed production and one plant had all white fruits, which were lousy tasting.

When I first grew GD is was very stable, but then Neil in IL and Jeff in Canada, and later I found out the same had happened for I think it was either Lee Goodwin, here at TV or Steve of Heirtage seeds who got plants with fruits that had a clear epidermis, and it was decided between Jeff and Neil and myself to call it GDF.

It was the first time that I'd grown a GWRipe with a clear epi since I trialed a variety for Tom Wagner back in the mid-90's, along with about 20 others, and the variety name is Verde Claro, and I love it.

No, I never suggested a cross that led to GDF, what I've always thought is that the epidermis gene was unstable and was flipping back and forth, and I still think that today.

Subsequently I've seen that many folks have grown GD and got both GD and GDFplants, and the reverse is also true.

Since both taste the same I don't have a problem with it at all and I don't see why anyone else would.

It's kind of a twofer situation if you will.:)

On my list of growouts for this season there's one GWRipe variety that's a beefsteak and I was delighted to be given those seeds since it sounds as though it has a clear epidermis and I'm also expecting another GWR from across the pond but I have no idea if that one has a yellow or clear epidermis.

I've grown lots of GWripes, I love them and just wanted to share some info about Green Giant. Those in the south who grew it usually got no amber blush at all, suggesting the epi was clear, not the normal yellow epi that most GWripes have. So Craig, seeing no amber blush in Raleigh, sent seeds of it to his friend in MI and to me, and we got the normal amber blush. I asked Reinhard Kraft about it , he was the original source, and he said that he grew his tomatoes in a greenhouse where it was quite warm.

So it would appear that there was a temperature induced phenotype change that was at work due to gene expession.

So no, I didn't suggest a cross, ever. It's really no different with variety Green Grape, which as released by Tom Wagner was indeterminate, but it kind of morphed into a determinate and Tom saw that himself when he first visited a greenhouse overseas where plants were being grown.

I also had a variety, I can't remember the name now, I'm sure Craig can, where you could save seeds from plants with PL foliage, sow them the next time and get plants , some with PL and some with RL.

Same thing happened with the variety Dr. Carolyn Pink, seeds sent to me by an SSE member. Sow seeds of Dr. Carolyn Pink and get large cherries, save seeds for it and get plants that have either large pink cherries, or small ones that are the size of the variety Dr. Carolyn and there's a couple of threads about that here at TV .

Same with the variety Kazachka seeds from Andrey in Belarus, where you can get some black cherries that are round on one plant and another plant will have what I call minibeefsteaks. When I asked Andrey about it he said he got the same results.

My point concerning the examples I've just written about?

Having flip flop of a given gene one can get different phenotypes and the genes involved have been quite varied, from fruit shape to leaf form to plant habit and also epidermis color and environmental variables such as temperature can also change the expression of genes as well.

I hope that helps.

Carolyn, who forgot one issue. Gunnar it isn't a matter of pure homozygous genes as I see it since there are even environmental variables that can alter phenotypes, such as temperature, as I mentioned above. I have no problem at all with Baker Creek saying you get both GD and GDF from seed puchased from them, but I don't think any number of generations is going to lead to an homozygous anything. Same as with the Dr. Carolyn Pink fruit size flip flopping and also the Kazachka fruit form flip flopping, to geve just two examples.

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;333830]
It would've been progeny of the cross, no? And would require stabilization - not be offered a few months after the cross was found. One of those segregants in my photo matches sweet sharon exactly.[/QUOTE]


This is what I'm wondering about. There are so many different stories about Sweet Sharon, I'm sitting here looking at all the different posts and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. Maybe someone can help me make sense of all this?

Is Sweet Sharon a mutation like Marianna's Seed website says?
[ATTACH]32180[/ATTACH]

Or is a cross that he is trying to stabilize?
[ATTACH]32183[/ATTACH]

I think it's interesting that in your post about the shapes of Sweet Beverley he seems to imply that he has never seen a white version of Sweet Beverley.
[ATTACH]32181[/ATTACH]

That was in 2011. Then in 2013, the same post, he says, "[SIZE=2]No, I have had them a long time before that thread, I just wanted more stability" [/SIZE]
[ATTACH]32182[/ATTACH]

[SIZE=2] [SIZE=2]March of 2012, Sweet Sharon was an f6 and very stable[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[ATTACH]32185[/ATTACH]

[SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]B[/SIZE]ut in April of 2012 S[SIZE=2]weet Sharon it was [SIZE=2]only an f5 and just quite stable. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[ATTACH]32184[/ATTACH][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]


Can a tomato become less stable over time? :twisted:
[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Maybe that's how all these "sister" lines are magically created![/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] [/SIZE]

Oh and apparently there is a red Sweet Beverley now.
[ATTACH]32189[/ATTACH]

Which is a cross and is being sold to unsuspecting customers -
[ATTACH]32191[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]32190[/ATTACH]

You know, I also understand things do not necessarily conform to the shape exact shape.

These plants were throwing the shape exact shape on all plants throughout the entire growing season in 2011. Meaning, pears stayed pears, rounds stayed rounds etc etc.

They were stable along the individual plants. They weren't changing shapes as was stated as the season continued (as was suggested in one of those screen shots).

The thing that turned me off for good was having an obvious a cross, having been told "gee no, I NEVER saw that white tomato before" - and then having it come out months later as a new variety. & to be told that I should've taken the photo with the tomato on the plant because further proof was needed! ;)

Plus, all this nonsense talk about growing throughout the year in greenhouses through the winter to stabilize all these varieties.

Do the math people, do you know how many thousands of square feet you'd need in a greenhouse to stabilize it to an F7? You couldn't do that with what amounts to large unheated sheds/hobby greenhouses!

You need alot of space and alot of plants - for just one variety to stabilize.

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;333938]The thing that turned me off for good was having an obvious a cross, having been told "gee no, I NEVER saw that white tomato before" - and then having it come out months later as a new variety. & to be told that I should've taken the photo with the tomato on the plant because further proof was needed.[/QUOTE]The "white" is now being called "Sweet Sharon", and "Sweet Beverley Red" is recognized as a cross and called "Sweet Sharon X".

[QUOTE=nadine18;333889][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Can a tomato become less stable over time? [SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Maybe that's how all these "sister" lines are magically created![/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE] [/QUOTE]If there's magic involved, you never know.

Hybrids
 

Apparently there are two outcrosses, "Sweet Beverley Red" and "Sweet Sharon X" with different mother plants.

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;333938]
[SIZE=1]Plus, all this nonsense talk about growing throughout the year in greenhouses through the winter to stabilize all these varieties.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Do the math people, do you know how many thousands of square feet you'd need in a greenhouse to stabilize it to an F7? You couldn't do that with what amounts to large unheated sheds/hobby greenhouses![/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]You need alot of space and alot of plants - for just one variety to stabilize.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]First off, there is a method of stabilization called single seed descent, used by many plant breeders.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]"I use single seed descent for most of my work ..." [Tom Wagner, [/SIZE][URL="http://tatermater.★★★★★★★★★.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=375&page=1"][SIZE=1]http://tatermater.★★★★★★★★★.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=375&page=1[/SIZE][/URL] ]

[SIZE=1]Single seed descent method is applicable and convenient when the breeder is limited in garden or greenhouse space.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Many gardeners today are enjoying untold numbers of heirloom varieties that were selected and stabilized using the single seed descent method.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=1]Edit: Apparently, I posted a hyperlink disallowed for a reason unknown to me. I apologize. My intent was only to document my quote of Mr. Wagner.[/SIZE]

Here is a better link -

[url]http://agriinfo.in/default.aspx?page=topic&superid=3&topicid=1761[/url]

Pertinent quote -


[QUOTE][LEFT]In this method, only one seed is selected randomly from each plant n F2 and subsequent generations. The selected seed is bulked and is used to grow the newts generation. This process is continue upto F5 generation. By this time desired level of homozygosity is achieved. In F6, large number of single plant, 200-500 are selected and their progeny are grown separately. In F7 and F8, selections are practised between progeny and superior progeny and are isolated based on preliminary replicated trial. The superior progenies are then tested in multiplication trails and the best progeny is identified for release.
The main objectives of single seed descent method is to rapidly advantage the generation of crosses and at the end of method a random sample of homozygous genotype is obtained. [/LEFT]
[/QUOTE]

It does not account for less plants, only seed randomization in F2 which is then bulked.

[QUOTE]General principles involved in this method is that, only one ( single) seed collected from each of the F2 plants ( 10000 to 20000) and then bulked to grow the next ( F3) generation.[/QUOTE]

& you can't short-change statistics, you still need a large population to stabilize a F7. Alot Tom's stuff is still segregating out.

But it is still not an "explanation" for the exponential spate of "grow-outs" and a real lack of documentation of these crosses. I know you are friends and eager to defend this, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Tom Wagner, a breeder of considerable experience and acumen, is no comparison for someone doing this for a few years.

Thank you for linking to a document which I previously have read and understand completely.

[QUOTE=surf4grrl;334038] Tom Wagner, a breeder of considerable experience and acumen, is no comparison for someone doing this for a few years.[/QUOTE]

While I agree completely that Mr. Wagner's experience and acumen in tomato breeding far exceeds that of the persons to whom you obvously refer, I think I'll await Mr. Wagner's comments, so we are able to understand how he employs single seed descent, and whether his method comports in detail with the method described in the document to which you link.

I appreciate you trying to drag Tom into this but this isn't about Tom Wagner or single seed descent.

This is about Sweet Beverly, Sweet Sharon and the conflicting stories many of us have gotten and continued to get.

I bring up the "year round growing" because it is the trope that we keep hearing is "we can grow to an F7" is 3-4 years for so very many varieties (what is it this year 3,000 varieties????) - are coming out and its suspect given that the single supposedly "stable variety" found on an abandoned farm now has various incarnations.

I've seen the numbers, and the stats, and honestly don't care. I know what a single human being can do per acre of tomatoes with documentation of those varieties. The idea this is jealousy is absurd.

So, I know the numbers don't add up. It's fiction - if you farmed for a living, you'd understand it better.

[QUOTE=travis;334026][SIZE=1]First off, there is a method of stabilization called single seed descent, used by many plant breeders.[/SIZE]

[/QUOTE]

So when you join the inner circle, do you get like a hand out or something on how to derail a thread? I think you forgot rule #3, there does not seem to be any humor in your post. Although, I did have to laugh that GunnarSK made three posts and the only new information that I got from them was that, dang that Beverley sure does seem to get around.

As for this method you are posting about, are your homies using it? I think not. Which is too bad, because it seems like the perfect method to use if you are breeding tomatoes just so you can mark a really cool name off the list.

I don't actually think your posse has a method, it seems to me that they just cross willy nilly and send out the seeds to anyone that will grow them. Then they keep and name every dang tomato that grows out. "ohhh, what a great find..." Has your crew ever met a bad tomato? Obviously not, or the rest of us wouldn't be subjected to hundreds of pictures of butt ugly tomatoes on a dirty blue plate.

If you really want to add something to this thread, why don't you pick one of the many crosses your friends have made and give us an exact timeline showing just how they go from cross to stable in 2 years.

Surf4Grrl, I was not speaking to Sweet Beverley or any of its variants. I grew it once. One plant, one time, so I don't have enough information or experience with it to offer an opinion as to its stability, or any other of its qualities.


Mine was a simple reply to your assertion that a line of tomatoes cannot be brought to stability in a shortened timespan by using a greenhouse to get a generation or two through cold months. And I simply used Mr. Wagner's quote as an example of someone with whom we are all familiar who uses single seed descent methodology, or some form of it, to arrive at a stable selection.


I guess I could've just as easily suggested we hear from someone who has used that or another methodology to arrive at a stable line of Ramapo OP at the F3, or Brandywine OTV in whatever filial generation that was accomplished, or any number of open pollinated tomato varieties or "strains" (i.e., Yellow Brandywine, Platfoot) that heirloom tomato growers enjoy today that were developed without employing the hard and fast rules that require massive blocks of plants in each generation from F2 to F7, etc.


And please don't confuse me with someone who is unable to do the math or discern the difference between hummus and horse hockey. This ain't my first trip around the block, and I do have a bit of experience with horticulture and plant breeding beyond the few years I've putzed around with this current tomato hobby.

Nadine18, I fail to see where I either did or intended to derail this thread. In fact, reading back through it, it seems the only times I have posted a message in this thread was in reply to some point or other, made by another member, and to which I thought to offer additional information that might help resolve a misconception regarding a method I use or a seed I might produce.

And please don't confuse me with a member of "a posse" or "a crew" or a person who requires a script or laundry list from which to cherry pick and post a reply in a tomato forum.

Additionally, I have never made a cross between two tomato lines in a "willy nilly" fashion. To the contrary, I select the parents to a cross with forethought and purpose.

So, now that I think of it, you must have me confused with someone else.

Yes, I have met a bad tomato. Yes, some of the bad tomatoes I have met were ones that grew among a filial generation of a cross I made myself. That's why I cull mercilessly.

As far as providing an exact timeline of someone else's work and product, what's the point? It's not my job to do, and to prove someone else's claim is of no concern to me.

I'm the person Travis was referring to when he mentioned the OP Ramapo which was stable at the F3, and that so since the two hybrid parents were very similar varieties. It meant growing out the hybrid, saving F2 seeds, replanting those, saving F3 seeds, making selectionos and at each growout also planting the original hybrid for comparison. It took 3 years and I could only grow plants in the summer.

I'm also the person he was referring to who was able to develop what Craig L and I called OTV Brandywine. OTV stands for Off the Vine, an international tomato newsletter that Craig and I were publishing at the time. Craig had sent out seeds of Yellow Brandywine to someone and got back a picture of a good looking PL red beefsteak along with seeds. Since I had a whole field for my tomato growing at the time, much more than Craig had , I did the dehybridization.It took me out to I think the F6 or F7,making selections and saving seeds to get to what we called OTV Brandywine that was stable. Again, I could only grow plants in the summer.

So about 3 years for the Ramapo OP and maybe 6-7 years for the OTV one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not thrilled with the tone of some recent posts in this thread. This is not the place to be making some of the accusations I've seen, as I see it. If there are specific issues that need to be discussed, please take it to e-mails or PM's.

Thanks for your cooperation.:)

Yes, I get paid for being a Global Moderator here and I get an extra $$$ bonus when I have to post what I just did, but while any extra money goes to my dark Chocolate budget, I really don't need it.:)

And if you believe that above paragraph, you're too far out there to appreciate my attempt at a bit of humor.:lol::?:

Carolyn

[QUOTE=carolyn137;334156]I'm the person Travis was referring to when he mentioned the OP Ramapo which was stable at the F3, and that so since the two hybrid parents were very similar varieties. It meant growing out the hybrid, saving F2 seeds, replanting those, saving F3 seeds, making selectionos and at each growout also planting the original hybrid for comparison. It took 3 years and I could only grow plants in the summer.

I'm also the person he was referring to who was able to develop what Craig L and I called OTV Brandywine. OTV stands for Off the Vine, an international tomato newsletter that Craig and I were publishing at the time. Craig had sent out seeds of Yellow Brandywine to someone and got back a picture of a good looking PL red beefsteak along with seeds. Since I had a whole field for my tomato growing at the time, much more than Craig had , I did the dehybridization.It took me out to I think the F6 or F7,making selections and saving seeds to get to what we called OTV Brandywine that was stable. Again, I could only grow plants in the summer.

So about 3 years for the Ramapo OP and maybe 6-7 years for the OTV one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not thrilled with the tone of some recent posts in this thread. This is not the place to be making some of the accusations I've seen, as I see it. If there are specific issues that need to be discussed, please take it to e-mails or PM's.

Thanks for your cooperation.:)

Yes, I get paid for being a Global Moderator here and I get an extra $$$ bonus when I have to post what I just did, but while any extra money goes to my dark Chocolate budget, I really don't need it.:)

And if you believe that above paragraph, you're too far out there to appreciate my attempt at a bit of humor.:lol::?:

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

Thanks for jumping in Carolyn, and for the OTV story. It's one of my favorite 'Brandywines' (even though it's not a Brandywine). ;). I'd love to know, from a strategic perspective, apx. how many OTV plants you grew out per generation for selection? And how closely the final product resembles the "original" (F1 or F2, whatever you had first)?
To me, one of the most interesting facets of this debate, is that I suspect very few of our most classic heirlooms were "properly" bred. The simple fact is that creating a stable tomato in three years is [I]EASY[/I]. Grow the F1 in the summer, a couple F2's in the green house in the fall (F2), send 'em south to a growing buddy for an early start. The south gets you to F3 (barely) in a year and a month or two. Repeat. In year three, you could easily be at F7/8 and stable for whatever you've ended up with, only growing a couple plants per generation. Whatever you've got at F8 will be 99.9% stable.
This is "wrong", because rather than seeing ALL the genetic possibilities represented in the cross (as you would growing 100's of plants per generation), you're playing the genetic lottery, and growing a couple random plants per generation. But the F8 [I]will[/I] be stable for whatever traits you've ended up with.
Funny thing is, I have a sneaking suspicion that many of our most beloved varieties came into being in exactly that manor. This is especially true of older varieties, and family heirlooms. I truly doubt that the person who first found Cherokee Purple, for example, found the cross, and then grew out hundreds of them in a field, carefully selected for dozens of traits over 8 generations, and then said "there, it's perfect!":D I think it's much more likely that they discovered the F1, thought "this is good", grew a few plants a year for many years, saving seeds from the ones they liked the most, and we ended up with a "classic" variety. That may even be why so many of our best heirlooms taste sooooo great, but are disease vulnerable, low production or store poorly. Taste is the phenotype most selected for by people making "unprofessional" selections, especially those growing small scale. Say you're a hobby gardener and you have three plants, and plant #1 tastes great, plant #2's ok, and plant #3 tastes like horse dookey, you're most likely to save seeds from #1.:)
The real question we should be asking isn't "Are these new crosses good enough?" Instead we should be asking "Are our old, beloved standard varieties as good as they could have been?"

The flip side of this coin is that we now have a deep understanding of genetic inheritance and of "best practice" breeding. Giant companies like Seminis make a cross, grow out thousands of plants per generation to capture multiple genes for vigor, productivity, and disease resistance. They then cross two of the stable OP's they've created to make a predictable (and commercially lucrative) F1 they can sell to Burpee, Gurney's, Walmart etc. In scientific terms they do it "right". But that presents an interesting conundrum for serious tomato-nerds like us.
Show of hands, who here would rather grow Celebrity, Better Boy and Early Girl rather than Paul Robeson, Cowlick Brandywine (selected small scale from one nursery plant) or Amazon Chocolate?

And that's why not only am I OK with how "The Posse's" going about tomato breeding, but am an enthusiastic participant. Maybe the end result's not as good as it could have been, who knows? But we're having fun, getting our hands dirty, and eating things that we had enough passion not only to grow, but to create. And isn't that kind of the point?:D

To air all my tomato breeding dirty laundry: This year I'm growing out 106 F1's of my own creation of which I'll grow 3 plants each in three different locations. I'm also growing out 23 different F2, F3, and F4 lines (mostly mine but a few for friends) of which I'll be growing between 15 and 25 plants per line myself. I'll also have gardening buddies both locally and around the country growing another 10 to 20 plants (total) per cross. This is hardly perfect, and we are unlikely to see EVERY potential segregate, but we'll hopefully see some pretty darn good ones and carry on from there. In the mean time I'll be paying real close attention to all those F1's and in the fall I'll be offering free F2 seed from those that show potential here and at other forums to anyone who wants them. All in, between a bunch of people we still probably won't do it "right", but we'll probably find some cool new tomatoes,revel in the miracle of genetic diversity, and have a good time doing it.

If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, that's cool. There's literally thousands of great OP's out there looking for a home. And you'll always know what you're going to get. But I'd rather find surprise instability than grow boring tomatoes.:lol:

Interesting post Paddy.

I was up late, so got up late and am now going to have breakfast and read the AM paper. But first, while at the site I'll take a look around before I leave.

Then I have to continue on the assignments of varieties for the folks who do seed production for me, some choose their own off my list of new vareities, others ask me to choose for them, since two are in the south and need seeds now as opposed to those not in the south.

Then I'll answer the specific questions you posed to me, then I'll make some comments about several things that you wrote.

Carolyn