fall seeds in de
 

Given all the interest in DE as a starter medium I thought I should report back. By the time I found my bag at a far away Autozone it was too late for summer, but I did try using it to start some fall plants. I put them outside, where it's warmer these days. (is this the humor column?) So far some of the seeds --both big and little ones--have been happy on my deck. "Homemade Pickles" cucumbers from Botanical Interests are the most vigorous growers. Broccoli (Calabrese) and cauliflower (Snowball x) are coming along nicely. However, the two squashes I tried (round zucchini and butternut) are so far not germinating. I know it would have been a stretch for the butternut to finish growing, but not impossible. Basil also not germinating but maybe the seeds were too old, or maybe they don't like DE. (squash seeds were vintage 2012, so they must have a different issue.)

rsrb, Give us some pictures when you get a chance.
How long have they been growing in the DE and what have you been feeding them?

So far the results are very good on the few seeds I have started in the stuff from Auto Zone. I planted some spinach on the 16th and had one pop up on the 18th and most are now up. That is far faster than I have ever had spinach sprout. My biggest worry with the spinach will be when it comes time to transplant them. I just don't know if few roots of spinach seedlings will cling well when trying to set them out. I will be starting some more fall seeds this week. I love working with the stuff. It soaks up water from the bottom much faster than any other medium I have ever used and the way it turns white when dry is an easy signal that they may need a bit of water. One thing I did learn is you want to do any leveling before you get the stuff wet. It is very easy to smooth out flat when dry but not when wet. I have really high hopes for this, so thanks again for posting the tip.:yes:

Bill

Well, my plans to have seeds started by now have been put off time and again, but finally TODAY, I will be planting, hurray..........

Well I have found one thing out about the Ultra-Sorb that I will have to watch out for and that is when it dries out it really dries out. When it starts turning white on top it is best to go ahead and water from the bottom right away and don't wait too long or your seedlings will wilt badly from getting too dry.

That's right. The technique is just passive hydroponics. Instead of using the color of the surface as a signal as when to bottom water, you can keep some water/nutrient solution in your tray at all times, the DE will draw up the liquid through capillary action as needed. There is always plenty of air space between the large DE particles so there is no worries about water logging like there is in seed starting mix or potting soil. It's kind of like a miniature SWC except you are using a totally inorganic medium to anchor the roots.

I am going to be growing some Prue tom's and some Rooster Spur peppers this next year.

-- [url]http://www.seedsavers.org/Details.aspx?itemNo=1467%28OG%29[/url] --

My question is... does anyone have a good idea about how "well" a Prue would do in a 5 gallon self watering bucket setup? Should I go with something like an 18 gallon self watering? I would kind of rather not go too much larger as the prices of the containers get drastically more expensive.

Thanks for any feedback!
Gary
P.S. I am still considering a 2nd Tom. Variety of some kind. I am in 9b in So. Cal. Near Bakersfield, so it gets pretty hot here. I want a variety that has a lot of flavor.

Gary, you should have posted your question in the "Growing In Containers" forum.
Aside from that, one Prue should do fine in a 5 gallon bucket.

RayR,

Sorry sir, next time I will definitely post in containers forum. Thank you for the reply!

Gary

So Ray, how did the tomatos fare during the summer having had those wonderful roots to start off? Did you notice any differences in growth and production?

[QUOTE=lakelady;300527]So Ray, how did the tomatos fare during the summer having had those wonderful roots to start off? Did you notice any differences in growth and production?[/QUOTE]

Well, I have had plenty of tomatoes but it's hard to judge growth and production in drought conditions since all my tomatoes are in-ground. Brandywine like some other larger varieties don't seem to thrive growth wise in such conditions, but they did have very good fruit set on smaller plants. Trying to keep up with watering has been a nightmare. The water table is usually pretty high here, but when my big Crimson Maple tree which is close to the garden starts dropping crispy brown leaves in the middle of summer, it sort of tells you there isn't enough water reserves down there.

The peppers on the other hand, both in-ground and in containers have done fantastic, both Chinese Giant and Hungarian Hot Wax from the DE experiment are all totally healthy and more productive than in previous years from those varieties.

I can tell you one thing for sure and that is that this stuff works far better than any other medium I have tried for spinach seed. I got near 100% germination and very fast germination to boot. Spinach has always been the most difficult seed to get a good stand with when starting it early in seed trays. Last year I planted and replanted over and over and never got enough healthy plants to set in the garden. I have planted it twice this year and both times the results have been fantastic and I was using left over seed from last year. I have had no damping off of any seed started in the Ultrasorb even though we have been having daily rains for a month and the humidity has been awful. I can't wait to see how good it does with tomatoes and peppers this winter and spring.

Now you've got me motivated to try Spinach transplants in DE.:) I've always direct seeded spinach, sometimes with mixed results because if the temps get hot early in spring it wants to bolt or if their is too much rain the seedlings get drowned. I know what you mean about the difficult germination problem.
I'd like to get some transplants in the ground and containers this fall to overwinter for a early spring crop. The best spinach I've ever grown was started in fall and overwintered.

I have been starting my spinach for years in containers and then transplanting. I always try to set out spinach in the fall because down here the spring can turn hot too soon and it just bolts. When I do set it out for the spring it is usually in early February. I used to direct sow and once in a while I would get a decent stand that wasn't messed up by too many large gaps; but usually I ended up with spinach taking up way more space than was necessary because I would plant such a long row. Now I just use about 6 ft of one raised bed and transplant my seedlings about a foot apart in staggered little rows giving me about 30 plants in the space which is far more than we need once it starts getting a little size on it.

Haven't read the whole thread yet.

So its a course grain DE, has anyone compared it with Turface-which is calcined clay that looks like cat litter. Does DE(Ultrasorb form) have nutrient properties?

Tonio,

Dollar Tree stores has a brand of cat litter that is DE, 4.5lb bag for about a $1. :)

[QUOTE=Tonio;301921]Haven't read the whole thread yet.

So its a course grain DE, has anyone compared it with Turface-which is calcined clay that looks like cat litter. Does DE(Ultrasorb form) have nutrient properties?[/QUOTE]

Tonio, there is a lot of things that you could experiment with. I've not tried Turface, I know it's absorbent, but doesn't hold as much water as DE and the Turface products are closer a PH of 6.

A mined mineral deposit like pure freshwater DE will have impurities including some nutrient cations, but it's probably negligible except for some micro-nutrients.

[QUOTE=Diriel]Dollar Tree stores has a brand of cat litter that is DE, 4.5lb bag for about a $1.[/QUOTE]

The Dollar Tree Stores up here don't carry DE cat litter. It must be a regional thing.
If it's the [URL="http://www.moltan.com/Products/Flyers/Blue%20Ribbon%20DE_10%20FlyerA.pdf"]Moltan product[/URL], I know that works just fine since it is the same as the Ultrasorb, just a larger granule size.

Ahh I see, for me it is Blue Ribbon DE. Someone on here reported it, I assumed I would go down and NOT see the DE version. I was happy to find that our local store did infact have the DE version. Seems to be working good so far. Lucky me.

Also Napa Autoparts has a DE version of their Floor-Dry Part#8822, cost is currently reported online as $5.75 for 24quart size bag.

[QUOTE=RayR;301952]Tonio, there is a lot of things that you could experiment with. I've not tried Turface, I know it's absorbent, but doesn't hold as much water as DE and the Turface products are closer a PH of 6.

A mined mineral deposit like pure freshwater DE will have impurities including some nutrient cations, but it's probably negligible except for some micro-nutrients.



The Dollar Tree Stores up here don't carry DE cat litter. It must be a regional thing.
If it's the [URL="http://www.moltan.com/Products/Flyers/Blue%20Ribbon%20DE_10%20FlyerA.pdf"]Moltan product[/URL], I know that works just fine since it is the same as the Ultrasorb, just a larger granule size.[/QUOTE]

Ray,

Thanks for the info. Is there a PH reading on DE?

Actually I am testing turface MVP, and regular starting mix w/ broccoli, since red gave good reviews. 1 six pack each a few days ago, and I see them germinating already. More so in turface. Temps is about 80F during the day and low 70's at night. Watering methods are different, and seems to need more w/ turface.

[QUOTE=Tonio;301991]Ray,

Thanks for the info. Is there a PH reading on DE?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I noted when I started this thread that the PH of the water in the Moltan DE product was 6.8, Not all DE will be the same PH, depends on the mine it comes from.
I believe that's true of the different Turface products too since they are mined from different sources.

[QUOTE=Tonio;301991]Actually I am testing turface MVP, and regular starting mix w/ broccoli, since red gave good reviews. 1 six pack each a few days ago, and I see them germinating already. More so in turface. Temps is about 80F during the day and low 70's at night. Watering methods are different, and seems to need more w/ turface.[/QUOTE]

Cool, keep us posted on the comparison.

Thanks Ray, read through the thread;)

Agree about differences of where the products is mined. I did notice from the pictures that the Ultrasorb is a finer grain than turface.

I'll see if they have any ultrasorb locally.

I started a few small trays of lettuce seed in the Ultrasorb a couple of days ago and the germination is terrific. I bottom watered the DE and then put in a few seed and lightly sprinkled with the dry DE to cover and left it in the water tray til it was wet. I usually don't put any seed starting mix on top of lettuce seed because they germinate better with some light but the DE seems to allow in more light for germination.

I was able to find DE at the local NAPA Auto Parts store in town and bought the 24 QT bag for $5.99. I don't know how much it actually weighs but it is way too much for me though, lol.

I want to try starting some seeds here for the winter garden, thinking the cole crops that it is way too hot for right now but the info on starting spinach has me pointing my ears. I can never seem to get the spinach to grow well so I am going to try seeds for it in the DE.

I do have a question about the DE though. Do I have to sift it? and if so, why? Just curious over here and like to understand what I am doing and why I should. Thanks for all the info on this thread.

Good question about sifting. 24qts? Whats that about the size of normal 50lbs bags? You could use it as a gritty mx ingredient in pots no?

I sift turface, and rinse off the access powder and small grains. It creates alot of powder/dust.

hmm. I wonder how the smaller grains would be for starting seeds. but assume DE would be more pourous.

May be hard to find a fine enough gauge screen ? Perhaps the bonsai type screen kits- could be costly.

I use regular aluminum insect screen used for" screen doors" , and is a perfect size for turface sifting.

I would be tempted to "amend" the DE with some some select organics. I would go approximately 50-60% DE, then I would very selectively add in "organic materials". I also use a self watering -- bottom watering system. So far it *SEEMS* to be doing well, the test is in the early stage however.

Oh, the part number on that Napa is #8822 :) ask me how i know that hahah. Then again I also have a couple 4.5lb bags of the Blue Ribbon D.E. Kitty Litter from the local Dollar Tree store. Seems to be pretty much the same, functionally at least.

Gary

[QUOTE=Tonio;302110]Good question about sifting. 24qts? Whats that about the size of normal 50lbs bags? You could use it as a gritty mx ingredient in pots no?[/QUOTE]


Maybe 50lbs, I know I couldn't even begin to lift it so the nice guy at the counter carried it to my truck for me. I also gave him the lowdown on why I wanted it and he was surprised. I also told him about Earthboxes, we had quite a conversation in the auto parts store about gardening, he and his dad grow 50 acres of oats, what a hoot!


[/QUOTE]I sift turface, and rinse off the access powder and small grains. It creates alot of powder/dust.[/QUOTE]

I was reading on a couple of other gardening forums and people were noting that they sifted their DE and used the finer powder for bug prevention in the garden. I guess two great products in one bag.


[/QUOTE]hmm. I wonder how the smaller grains would be for starting seeds. but assume DE would be more pourous.[/QUOTE]

I wondered about the smaller grains and thought maybe they would be so small that they would be like cement instead of airy because of the big grains and maybe that is why some people are sifting it?

:dizzy:

[QUOTE=Tonio;302111]May be hard to find a fine enough gauge screen ? Perhaps the bonsai type screen kits- could be costly.

I use regular aluminum insect screen used for" screen doors" , and is a perfect size for turface sifting.[/QUOTE]


Perfect, I have some old screens with frames as well as some new screen left over from a repair job so I think I am good to go in that department. :yes:

[QUOTE=Diriel;302112]I would be tempted to "amend" the DE with some some select organics. I would go approximately 50-60% DE, then I would very selectively add in "organic materials". I also use a self watering -- bottom watering system. So far it *SEEMS* to be doing well, the test is in the early stage however.

Oh, the part number on that Napa is #8822 :) ask me how i know that hahah. Then again I also have a couple 4.5lb bags of the Blue Ribbon D.E. Kitty Litter from the local Dollar Tree store. Seems to be pretty much the same, functionally at least.

Gary[/QUOTE]

Diriel, what organic material would you use to amend the DE with?

I purchased a seed starter kit that has a bottom tray for watering so I should be good there. I guess my thought was that the seeds could be started in the DE and when the seedlings get strong enough I can transplant them from the tray into a bigger container or just go direct into the Earthboxes.

Does this sound like a winner?

I had a bag of Napa Floor Dry earlier in the year. It is a product of [URL="http://epminerals.com/absorbants.html"]EP Minerals[/URL]. I remember testing it for PH, it was more alkaline than the Moltan products, I believe it was more around 8.0, can't remember exactly, I didn't write it down. I didn't try it for seed starting but I did use it as an amendment in the garden.