In my above post I forgot to add that cukes are cucurbits,as are squash,so most save cuke seed the same way you would squash seed,and that's by letting the mature squash seeds just dry.

Mainly seeds that have gel capsules need to be fermented.

I think the following link is very good but they suggest allowing g cuke seeds to sit in a jar first and I never did that at all with no problems.

[url]http://www.seedsave.org/issi/904/experienced.html[/url]

Carolyn

I've grown Cold Set and Siletz parthenocarpic tomatoes. Cold Set had lots of viable seeds in them from the get go, but Siletz had a lot of seedless fruit - or just wisps of seeds as Carolyn described - but then there were a few fruit that had not huge numbers but enough normal mature seeds to propagate the variety. I would estimate I got as many seeds from the entire plant's worth of fruit, as you might ordinarily get from a single tomato.

Very interested to hear the cukes should follow that same pattern. Because growing in a closed greenhouse (or indoors when I dare!) there's no point in growing anything not parthenocarpic. The fact they are not as plentiful means they will likely always be more expensive, and a good enough reason to save your own seeds even if by stabilizing from the F1.

The gynoecious trait is something else, afaik. That is all female flowers. I seem to recall one or the other of Passandra or Carmen had some male flowers as well, they weren't needed for pollination though.

I've never done any crosses with parthenocarpic fruit, no idea if these traits are dominant or recessive? Nor the gynoecious trait in cucumbers either. :?!?:

Well it looks like both parthenocarpy and gynoecious traits are complex in cucumber - influenced by hormones so of course all the genetic makeup in the hormone aspect also plays into its expression, as well as the environment.

Here's a reference, hope the link works. Gynoecious flowering discussed page 7-8 and parthenocarpy page 9.

[URL="http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/book15.pdf"]cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/book15.pdf[/URL]

[QUOTE=bower;574786]Well it looks like both parthenocarpy and gynoecious traits are complex in cucumber - influenced by hormones so of course all the genetic makeup in the hormone aspect also plays into its expression, as well as the environment.

Here's a reference, hope the link works. Gynoecious flowering discussed page 7-8 and parthenocarpy page 9.

[URL="http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/book15.pdf"]cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/book15.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]

Yes,the link works and I ASAP went to the pages you noted.

All to say that it seems very complicated as genes involved,or not,same with hormones involved, which ones,etc. About the only thing that resonated totally with me was the reference to IAA (indole acetic acid) as inducing parthenocarpy,since most companies that produce Blossom Set do include IAA.

And there are alway squestions about Blossom Set saying they live in FL, etc. and blossoms aren't being pollenized and would BS help,the answer being no,since BS was developed to be used in areas where Springs are cold,mainly the PNWest.

All to say is that it would be great to know more but methinks I'll continue to grow those cukes that have done well, for me, and yes,mostly the self pollinating ones.:)

Carolyn, and also glad to see that the situation with cukes re all above is about the same with tomatoes as well.:)

The seeds of Sweet Success were all non-viable for me. They look ok in the cuke itself, but they shrink into hollow shells when dried.

It's nice here in cucumberville.com

Carolyn, do you mean parthenocarpic varieties can develop viable seeds on their own, without a daddy? Like komodo dragons?
I did not think that was possible so i assumed they must have been cossed. I do see the offsprings have both boys and girls, and fruits-- is that still partheocarpic or regular now?

[QUOTE=carolyn137;574729]Just repeating what you posted in post #7

(A bit off topic here. Last fall, i found a mature old en F1 cucumber in the greenhouse with a belly full of seeds, it must have been pollinated by some other variety, so i saved some and planted some this year. The seedlings came up nicely and transplanted well, so we'll see what i'll get out of them. The F1 production was impressive)

With parthenocarpic varieties,tomatoes included, at first they have just wisps of undeveloped seeds but as they mature fully formed viable seeds are formed and that's great since how else are parthenocarpic varieties going to be perpetuated?

For sure they are going to rebreed them as I see it and just my opinion,perhaps,after being up close and personal with all the parthenocarpic tomato ones that Dr. Baggett bred and feedback from those who grew them.:)

Carolyn[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NewWestGardener;574834]Carolyn, do you mean parthenocarpic varieties can develop viable seeds on their own, without a daddy? Like komodo dragons?
I did not think that was possible so i assumed they must have been cossed. I do see the offsprings have both boys and girls, and fruits-- is that still partheocarpic or regular now?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do mean that both parthenocarpic cukes and tomatoes can develop viable seeds without any crossing.

Above,Bower gave an excellent link to parthenocarpic cukes and what can happen.I read the pages he noted and yes, it's very complicated as to genes involved,hormones involved and more.

So if you are interested I suggest you go back up and read Bower's initial post with the link and then my response to what I read.

Carolyn

NewWestGardener, I think it's not surprising that there are male and female blossoms on some of the F2. I think though that if you grow out as many seeds as you can, and save from the ones that express the gynoecious trait the most, you may get a stable all female variety eventually, or mostly female.
I'm pretty sure that one of the parthenocarpics I grew, that had some male blossoms, was supposed to be all female, so it would be an environmental factor that caused male blossoms in spite of that. It isn't the kind of trait that is 100%.
As for the parthenocarpy you'll see if the fruit are mostly seedless or not - or if pollinators are excluded, I guess the non-parthenocarpics wouldn't set any fruit.:)
I think it's a great project to grow out those Picolino seeds. :D

[SIZE=4]I am trying Iznik cucumber this season. The seed was pricey, but the plants came up fast, they look very nice so far. But they aren't far along yet. I hope they do well here;):)[/SIZE]

I forgot about saving Picolino F1 seeds until after the first frost. I move my greenhouse production pots out to the garden after the weather warms. I found a huge rotten fruit hidden in the weeds and rinsed and saved most of the seeds. The majority of them dried out very flat and empty looking, but there are a very few that seem plump enough to germinate, so I'll be starting them shortly. I'm hoping they didn't actually freeze in the fruit last fall. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! And I'm really hoping a couple germinate, because I have misplaced my seed packet from last year, and they are sold out! :shock:

Wow, interesting Dee.Keep updating us..
I have a couple of parthenocarpic varieties for small spaces, but my space is mostly reserved for tomatoes... and cucumbers do get attacked by bugs much easier.
On the other hand, I love fresh cukes, absolutely delicious, unbeatable .. Eating a cuke/tomato salad is local food at its best.
I just have never seen a small cucumber plant yet... even those 'small and tidy' balcony varieties get large enough to cover the entire wall, lol!

I would be really surprised if any seed saved from a parthenoparpic cuke would sprout. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[QUOTE=greenthumbomaha;574542]Some time ago a poster showed photos of a cucumber that he/she was growing indoors under lights during the winter. I don't think it was hand pollinated. The poster had a few cucumbers produced during the winter, which attracted my attention. It sounded like a pretty amazing feat to me. I'm not certain but I think it was Diva.

For me cucumbers are feast or famine due to the cucumber beetle or if powdery mildew sets up residence.

- Lisa[/QUOTE]


This reminds me to start some asap. Any tips for keeping powdery mildew at bay when growing indoors?

[QUOTE=NarnianGarden;635654]Wow, interesting Dee.Keep updating us..
I have a couple of parthenocarpic varieties for small spaces, but my space is mostly reserved for tomatoes... and cucumbers do get attacked by bugs much easier.
On the other hand, I love fresh cukes, absolutely delicious, unbeatable .. Eating a cuke/tomato salad is local food at its best.
I just have never seen a small cucumber plant yet... even those 'small and tidy' balcony varieties get large enough to cover the entire wall, lol![/QUOTE]

Narnian, I think Picolino would make a great balcony cucumber. As you can see, it already had three cucumbers of eating size with the short vines in the picture. I don't really know it's long term potential, because I concentrated on my outdoor cukes when they started bearing. The Picolino pot got lost in the crowd and not fertilized etc later in the summer. I think you could keep training vines in a fairly small area, as you remove older spent leaves near the bottom.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/MizTortuga/GardenNonTomato/picolinoPot_zpsyeuojbyg.jpg[/IMG]

Have not yet started the F2 seeds, weather took a turn for the colder this week. Had to bring all the greenhouse stuff back into the house and garage because I can't trust night temps under 23F with my small heater.