[QUOTE=Tania;429730]We grow sage, asparagus, and blueberries in the same spot. Broccoli and potatoes are also grown side-by-side. They prefer very different pH, but they are all thriving in our garden.

So, I do not get hung up on soil pH, as long as our soil is rich in organic matter. :)[/QUOTE]

Great to know! I'm really looking forward to our own potatoes and especially, fresh asparagus!
Have you tried artichokes? I just started four varieties. We love artichokes and the plants are cool, too.

[QUOTE=Tania;429723]However, I would not hang up on the soil pH (low or high), as I believe that it is not the most important thing for growing edible crops.

If the nutrients are provided for the crops that they need the most, then soil pH is not important.

Soil pH affects the availability of nutrients (see the diagram in the link below)
[URL]http://www.superiorminerals.co.nz/pages/13-3/Understanding-the-Science-Behind-Superior-Minerals[/URL]. So the plants that 'love' low or high pH are simply thriving at certain micro-nutrients levels.

For example, blueberries are not 'acid-lovers'. They will grow perfectly well at high pH if you can limit the availability of Ca, which is locked in highly acidic soils. They also prefer N in ammonia form, not in nitrate form as other plants.[/QUOTE]


[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Blueberries will die at a high PH. Nobody I know has had any luck at high Ph with blueberries. I have seen them die with my own eyes, very sad thing. More people kill them then any other plant. We constantly guide people in the orchard forum about blueberries. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I would call them acid lovers as other plants like acid but can grow in a basic environment. Blueberries most definitely cannot.[/FONT][/SIZE]
Ca defines a soil being basic. You can't have a basic soil without carbonates, so their is no way to limit calcium, well if you do, the soil is no longer basic! Chemistry 101.

On the orchard forum we do tell people how to limit calcium i.e turn the soil acidic. It is possible to have no carbonates and high PH, but you would need to limit hydrogen to do it. So technically PH and carbonate load are 2 different things. In practice limiting calcium makes soil acidic. Sulfuric acid works best locking calcium into gypsum.

I would much rather have low pH than high. There were many failures in my AZ garden due to pH. It was very high and even with tons of compost ,gypsum and sulfur it remained above 8.0.
Drew- I am thrilled to be able to grow blueberries
in the ground. That's a huge bonus to living here! One of my favorite fruits!
Not to mention peaches and strawberries. And blackberries!

Wanted to mention something about my poultry. I will eventually have a flock of guineas and peafowl free ranging. Chickens will be able to range but fenced out of gardens. Ducks will be free range but, I suspect they will hang by the pond unless I force them somewhere else.
I'm also planning turkeys ( a heritage breed)next year and hope to find Dorking chickens and get away from hybrids for our meat.
I haven't bought any chicken from the store for three years, except some for the pets. Recently, we've eaten some store bought. I cooked the last broiler from the freezer in the pressure cooker the final day before our move. We had 6 people on the move and enjoyed some great chicken plain and in sandwiches.
I also would love to raise my own beef again. I used to raise longhorns and butchered one very year or so. They originally came from an auction off the Wichita Mountain Refuge. This was one of just a few herds started by Teddy Roosevelt to save the breed. I live longhorn beef. It's so totally different from any other type of beef that I've ever eaten. Very lean but not tough if properly cooked. Very " clean" tasting and darker than CAFO meat.
Finally, I used to buy one pig a year from an FFA or 4-H kid. I wouldn't mind doing that again, especially as I feed a lot of pork to the dogs and cats. ( I would love to have them on only grass fed beef/game/poultry) but, I go through about 4 pounds of meat a day just for them which would be a lot of game. I simply don't have that much time, although I'm hoping to find somebody who would be interested in giving me their deer organs/scraps.
I do follow a lot of permaculture concepts, particularly in that I don't like monoculture gardens and I use a great deal of manure ( plus bedding) from my stock.

[QUOTE=Tracydr;429776]Wanted to mention something about my poultry. I will eventually have a flock of guineas and peafowl free ranging. Chickens will be able to range but fenced out of gardens. Ducks will be free range but, I suspect they will hang by the pond unless I force them somewhere else.
I'm also planning turkeys ( a heritage breed)next year and hope to find Dorking chickens and get away from hybrids for our meat.
I haven't bought any chicken from the store for three years, except some for the pets. Recently, we've eaten some store bought. I cooked the last broiler from the freezer in the pressure cooker the final day before our move. We had 6 people on the move and enjoyed some great chicken plain and in sandwiches.
I also would love to raise my own beef again. I used to raise longhorns and butchered one very year or so. They originally came from an auction off the Wichita Mountain Refuge. This was one of just a few herds started by Teddy Roosevelt to save the breed. I live longhorn beef. It's so totally different from any other type of beef that I've ever eaten. Very lean but not tough if properly cooked. Very " clean" tasting and darker than CAFO meat.
Finally, I used to buy one pig a year from an FFA or 4-H kid. I wouldn't mind doing that again, especially as I feed a lot of pork to the dogs and cats. ( I would love to have them on only grass fed beef/game/poultry) but, I go through about 4 pounds of meat a day just for them which would be a lot of game. I simply don't have that much time, although I'm hoping to find somebody who would be interested in giving me their deer organs/scraps.
I do follow a lot of permaculture concepts, particularly in that I don't like monoculture gardens and I use a great deal of manure ( plus bedding) from my stock.[/QUOTE] I knew you were experienced! You'll do great. One tip. If you like longhorn beef, there is another gourmet heritage beef breed well adapted for grazing instead of stockyards, and far more manageable for the smaller homesteads. Cracker cattle. If anything it tastes even better.:yes:Well adapted to mixed forest/savanna/pasture, and won't linger near water, seldom if ever needs a Vet, and grows so fast it can reach sexual maturity even before it gets weened. All this and the taste you talked about too! The one drawback is that cracker cattle is on average 1/2 the size of standard breeds, which explains why the larger breeds took over in the beef industry, processing cost per pound. Larger animals have lower processing costs per pound. I have had steak from both. If anything I like cracker beef slightly better.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Cracker_cattle"]Florida Cracker cattle[/URL]

[URL="http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/breeds/cattle/floridacracker/index.htm"]Florida Cracker/Pineywoods[/URL]

[URL="http://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/florida-cracker-cattle"]Florida Cracker Cattle[/URL]

Tracy,

It is so lovely to be able to raise your own meat. And chickens too. I am so happy for you! Please keep us posted about your farm animals, once you get to that point. I would love to watch the progress. All the best to you! It sure looks like a very lovely place to farm! :yes: :love:

I think you'll get everything thriving there very soon.

Tatiana

Tracy,

First off, welcome to NC. I have a number of relatives who live just west of you in Richmond Co. and an aunt who works at the hospital there in Laurinburg.

Second, as you mentioned the land hasn't been farmed in over 30 years, I suspect what you're going to find is that's the soil type typically found in this area of the state. Which is why pine trees do so well there! A few miles north of you is Southern Pines and Pinehurst....

I would suggest looking around the area in Scotland Co. to see what others are doing. Talk to some folks at local nurseries to get feedback on the best local practices. I think the ideas presented so far are all good generally, but you need to determine what is the best viable solution for the soil in your area.
I like leaf mulch, but if your tree population is similar to what my uncle and grandma had, you may not have much to use. (They had mainly pines and live oaks. The pines will just keep your pH low, and I'm not sure of the added quality of live oak leaves.)
I also like the idea of animal manures to help build up the soil. I guess that will be a long process though.

Probably the best idea while you are working to improve the soil, is to focus on the things that will thrive. Blueberries and peaches are two excellent choices. Go over to Elerbe and Norman in Richmond Co. to visit the peach orchards there. They grow great in your area and you may be able to find a good source of trees to plant. I get peaches from a farm there that produces from April to October! IF you are looking for a really good variety, ask around for a tree called Contender. It is an excellent tasting free-stone peach that has minimal oxidation upon cutting. (ie. no need to add sugar or other preservatives to maintain color when freezing!)
Another crop to try is Sweet potatoes. NC is one of the nation's top sweet potato producing state. Most of the crop comes from eastern NC which has similar soil type as you, so it would definitely be something to look into.

Let me know if you have any NC specific questions to ask. I'll be glad to help if I can!

Lee

Tracy,

I dont mean any disrespect towards you or the other posters in this thread but what is the point of doing a soil test if you then ignore the recomendations of the lab?

PH is critical for growing crops. PH of 6.0-7.8 is in a range that can allow most all crops to do okay, although they might not have optimum yields and might lock up micronutrients. Yours is LOW. This will limit what crops you can grow there. Blueberries would thrive. Im sure there are other crops that can grow well in a acidic soil but tomatoes are not on that list.

Your Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium are LOW. These are also critical to growing a crop. If you are wanting to grow organic there are ways to add these critical nutrients and still be organic.

Your humus is low. Your compost and leaves and other additions will help with this and that is a slow process to increase but you can still grow a decent crop in low organic matter as long as you have a good nutrient load.

Sorry if I appear blunt or rude. It's not my intent.

Hi, Lee. I live about 1.5 miles from the hospital. Loving this area, it's amazing! We have a pretty wide variation of trees along with the oaks and pines. The people who originally built the house were into landscaping so I'm constantly learning to identify all the flowers, shrubs and trees.
I have nearby produce farm and the lady who owns it is a wealth of information. She grows almost everything and also sells neighbor's peanuts. I've become addicted to the boiled peanuts she makes and hope to find a spot somewhere to grow a few of my own.
Coming from the west and having lived in Arizona for the past 10 years, the gardening here looks like it will have different challenges but overall it's seems like it's easier to grow fruits and veggies.
Scott-I looked at the Cracker cattle. What a cool breed! Although, I never found longhorns to be difficult to handle or manage, other than they need a specialized working chute, due to the long horns. I've looked into some of the less common breeds of various livestock and the cost to buy a few is generally crazy. I had a neighbor in WA state when I was stationed there who raised Dexter cattle which are adorably small.
Tania-living here is like going camping every day! I'm coming to find little treasures growing here everyday. Today I identified autumn olives or autumn berries, which are extremely high in lycopene and are supposed to be delicious.
I have an order of around 100 strawberry plants which I will be preparing a spot for this weekend.
I really don't have time to go to work and would love to be a full-time farmer,lol.
I even have a year of Masters degree classes in Animal sciences!

[QUOTE=Barbee;429813]Tracy,

I dont mean any disrespect towards you or the other posters in this thread but what is the point of doing a soil test if you then ignore the recomendations of the lab?

PH is critical for growing crops. PH of 6.0-7.8 is in a range that can allow most all crops to do okay, although they might not have optimum yields and might lock up micronutrients. Yours is LOW. This will limit what crops you can grow there. Blueberries would thrive. Im sure there are other crops that can grow well in a acidic soil but tomatoes are not on that list.

Your Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium are LOW. These are also critical to growing a crop. If you are wanting to grow organic there are ways to add these critical nutrients and still be organic.

Your humus is low. Your compost and leaves and other additions will help with this and that is a slow process to increase but you can still grow a decent crop in low organic matter as long as you have a good nutrient load.

Sorry if I appear blunt or rude. It's not my intent.[/QUOTE]
Not rude but I'm confused why you think I'm going to ignore the recommendations? I'm hauling organic matter to my garden spots daily, have already started a compost tumbler and large compost pile and I started this thread to get recommendations for better ways to improve the soil, rather than just dumping inorganic amendments on it every season. Are you referring to Tania's comment that the pH generally takes care of itself as you add more organic matter? Or, are you saying I can only grow blueberries and not tomatoes? There are large produce farms all around me so I'm confident that my soil can be helped.
Soil testing was literally one of the first things I did when I arrived so I'm certainly not going to ignore the results.

[QUOTE=Lee;429809]Tracy,

First off, welcome to NC. I have a number of relatives who live just west of you in Richmond Co. and an aunt who works at the hospital there in Laurinburg.

Second, as you mentioned the land hasn't been farmed in over 30 years, I suspect what you're going to find is that's the soil type typically found in this area of the state. Which is why pine trees do so well there! A few miles north of you is Southern Pines and Pinehurst....

I would suggest looking around the area in Scotland Co. to see what others are doing. Talk to some folks at local nurseries to get feedback on the best local practices. I think the ideas presented so far are all good generally, but you need to determine what is the best viable solution for the soil in your area.
I like leaf mulch, but if your tree population is similar to what my uncle and grandma had, you may not have much to use. (They had mainly pines and live oaks. The pines will just keep your pH low, and I'm not sure of the added quality of live oak leaves.)
I also like the idea of animal manures to help build up the soil. I guess that will be a long process though.

Probably the best idea while you are working to improve the soil, is to focus on the things that will thrive. Blueberries and peaches are two excellent choices. Go over to Elerbe and Norman in Richmond Co. to visit the peach orchards there. They grow great in your area and you may be able to find a good source of trees to plant. I get peaches from a farm there that produces from April to October! IF you are looking for a really good variety, ask around for a tree called Contender. It is an excellent tasting free-stone peach that has minimal oxidation upon cutting. (ie. no need to add sugar or other preservatives to maintain color when freezing!)
Another crop to try is Sweet potatoes. NC is one of the nation's top sweet potato producing state. Most of the crop comes from eastern NC which has similar soil type as you, so it would definitely be something to look into.

Let me know if you have any NC specific questions to ask. I'll be glad to help if I can!

Lee[/QUOTE]
Thanks so much for recommending the peach farms. I will be sure to visit them! And, for the information on the Contender peach. I'm very glad that sweet potatoes thrive as it is a vegetable we eat on a regular basis. We also love Limas and cowpeas which seem to thrive here in the summer.
I'm sure I'll be hitting you up for more information. Right now, I'm looking for somebody to fence the property and build a chicken coop/pen.

[QUOTE=drew51;429742][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Blueberries will die at a high PH. Nobody I know has had any luck at high Ph with blueberries. I have seen them die with my own eyes, very sad thing. More people kill them then any other plant. We constantly guide people in the orchard forum about blueberries. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I would call them acid lovers as other plants like acid but can grow in a basic environment. Blueberries most definitely cannot.[/FONT][/SIZE]
Ca defines a soil being basic. You can't have a basic soil without carbonates, so their is no way to limit calcium, well if you do, the soil is no longer basic! Chemistry 101.

On the orchard forum we do tell people how to limit calcium i.e turn the soil acidic. It is possible to have no carbonates and high PH, but you would need to limit hydrogen to do it. So technically PH and carbonate load are 2 different things. In practice limiting calcium makes soil acidic. Sulfuric acid works best locking calcium into gypsum.[/QUOTE]
I was quite confused about why the soil test instructs me to apply more lime in the area I will be growing blueberries than in my vegetable area. They are 0.1 points different but the amount of lime recommended is 5 pounds more per 1,000 square feet.

[QUOTE=Tracydr;429815]Not rude but I'm confused why you think I'm going to ignore the recommendations? I'm hauling organic matter to my garden spots daily, have already started a compost tumbler and large compost pile and I started this thread to get recommendations for better ways to improve the soil, rather than just dumping inorganic amendments on it every season. Are you referring to Tania's comment that the pH generally takes care of itself as you add more organic matter? Or, are you saying I can only grow blueberries and not tomatoes? There are large produce farms all around me so I'm confident that my soil can be helped.
Soil testing was literally one of the first things I did when I arrived so I'm certainly not going to ignore the results.[/QUOTE]

This is the part that made me think you were going to ignore the lab results:

"Obviously I won't put all the recommended lime down at one time."

For the record, I did not suggest you dump a bunch of inorganic anything on your soil. I see I did offend you and I'm sorry. I will not jump into your conversation again. My apologies

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I am kinda rude, so my apologies to all. You guys rock here especially Tatiana! As for peaches I would love to try one called the perfect peach by Dr. Layne of Clemson University. Winblo, It was developed in your area (SC), and is rated high on the peach tree reports on Garden Web. Scott, Harvestman, and Olpea grow or manage hundreds of peach trees. This info is mostly from them. I made a list for myself of the best peaches mentioned on Garden Web. I was mostly looking for peaches for my area, but if excellent I listed it.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Peaches and nectarines I have are Old Mixon Free, Indian Free, Arctic Glo, Lucky 13, and Spice Zee Nectaplum a nectarine-plum hybrid made by hand crosses, not a GMO.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Here is the list[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Arctic Jay Nectarine* - all time DWN taste test leader[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Arctic Glo Nectarine* - White, tart, unique taste, grows well here.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Blazingstar[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Blood Indian Cling[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Carman* - low rot problems, and great taste. Scott recommended[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Carolina Gold* - a high grade choice of Scott[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]clayton - hard to find, Scott recommended (Vaughn Nursery has it, but doesn't list, ask!)[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Double Jewel Peach - Double pink flowers[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Early Crawford[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Ernie's choice[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Gold Dust[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Harrow Diamond* - best resistance of the Canadians, a good early[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Harcrest- Canadian, good resistance and taste[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Honey Babe Miniature Peach - Farmer Fred Favorite[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Indian Free* - winner of many taste tests, white with red streaks. Late season.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Peach leaf curl resistant, Beautiful looking peach on the inside.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Kinda ugly on the outside. Susceptible to brown rot Grown by Thomas Jefferson[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Jefferson* - A good yellow highly praised.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Jon Boy - Hman choice for steady production[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Lady Nancy - White, great tastes, but low cropper in colder areas.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Loring - test taste winner, hman choice for consistency[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Madison[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Mericrest nectarine - Scott fav![/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]O'Henry* - Yellow. One of the best, everybody gives a thumbs up![/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Although does have bacterial spot problems[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Old mixon Free* - White, grown by Jefferson. Scott recommended[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Terre madre and Albemarle ciderworks have trees.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Pallas[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Raritan Rose - Good white[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Red Baron - Red Double flowers and excellent taste. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Red Skin - Olpea favorite. Sweet, big, good![/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]rio oso gem - Scott recommended, bacterial spot problems[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Silver logen - rot problems, good tasting white[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]TangOs[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Winblo - melting yellow peach with a really good taste.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Scott recommended.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Zin Dai - Scott recommended[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I'm not sure why that wanted more lime in the blueberry area, it may be other fruit you listed as growing there. I do know that 4.8 is perfect for blueberries, and the acceptable range is 4.5 to 5.5.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I always liked this article it sums it up good. usually I reference University reports. This is an exception.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][URL="mhtml:{3EE3F14D-81D7-4103-8094-D5888AAC56A6}mid://00000020/!x-usc:http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/blueberries"]http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/blueberries[/URL][/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Blueberry cultivars ripen at different times. It's nice to have them all season. This chart may be useful[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][URL="mhtml:{3EE3F14D-81D7-4103-8094-D5888AAC56A6}mid://00000020/!x-usc:http://www.mrjacksfarm.com/dnn/Resources/FruitRipeningChartsFor/Blueberries/tabid/606/Default.aspx"]http://www.mrjacksfarm.com/dnn/Resources/FruitRipeningChartsFor/Blueberries/tabid/606/Default.aspx[/URL][/FONT][/SIZE]



[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]I live in the suburbs and want more trees. The latest thing even in commercial agriculture is to have trees one can harvest without ladders. It cuts down on injuries in the orchard. So I follow backyard Orchard Culture techniques. these videos explain it well[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][URL="mhtml:{3EE3F14D-81D7-4103-8094-D5888AAC56A6}mid://00000020/!x-usc:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUlShqpLDCJ-Q97zk3tsYZAw"]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUlShqpLDCJ-Q97zk3tsYZAw[/URL][/FONT][/SIZE]


[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Here is a photo of my backyard. Notice the tomatoes in pots on the left. Compare height to my trees. All I need is about 50 peaches from each tree. They ripen at different times, so I have peaches all season. Some trees were just added. No point in growing huge trees, what would I do with all the fruit? These trees will never be any higher than 8 feet. They are close to maximum height now. MSU and many universities endorse these techniques of keeping trees small. See videos for details.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][U][COLOR=#0066cc][URL="http://s128.photobucket.com/user/whitenoise_photo/media/012-3.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p181/whitenoise_photo/012-3.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/COLOR][/U][/FONT][/SIZE]

I love your orchard, Drew!
Barbee-the reason that I don't want to put all the lime down at once is that it's harder to make soil pH go down than up. It would be pretty easy to overshoot and then have the opposite problem. Hence, my comment.
I will probably start with about 1/-2/3 of the recommended amount and get a new test in the early spring. As Tania noted, pH can be buffered by adding compost which is another benefit of compost. Therefore, it's possible to start with a lower amount of lime and move towards neutral in a slow, steady way.
Drew-I prefer smaller trees, too. It's much too hard to take care of really big ones. I used to have an apple with two types of fruit that ripened at different times. I think it was a golden delicious and Granny Smith but I acquired it when I moved into an older house so I really don't know what kind it was.