After reading thru this entire thread.Its no wonder why i stick to myself and stay off tomato forums.You people are crazy.With my crosses,Some have been terrible.But some have been fantastic.Think now it would be best just to share them with the locals here in my home town.And enjoy doing my own thing with myself,HaHaHaHa..Have fun arguing with each other peeps.I`m just going to keep growing great tasting tomatoes here in Springfield Illinois,And Enjoying It........

I usually stay away from harvesting both early and late fruits.

Early "multiflora" flowers are more likely to be cross pollinated. Additionally, I find that early in the season flowers are more often visited by bumblebees, likely because there aren't as many other options available at that time.

Late in the season fruits may have fewer viable seeds. But this is all dependent on environment and weather conditions.

[QUOTE=hl2601;729943]So if all the fruits on one plant have the same genotype-which are the best to select for seeds? Earlier, later, largest,very ripe?[/QUOTE]

So, you pop into a thread in which people are "arguing" to call people "crazy"?

Well, thank you for not arguing or anything.

[QUOTE=Pappabell;749036]After reading thru this entire thread.Its no wonder why i stick to myself and stay off tomato forums.You people are crazy.With my crosses,Some have been terrible.But some have been fantastic.Think now it would be best just to share them with the locals here in my home town.And enjoy doing my own thing with myself,HaHaHaHa..Have fun arguing with each other peeps.I`m just going to keep growing great tasting tomatoes here in Springfield Illinois,And Enjoying It........[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;749052]I usually stay away from harvesting both early and late fruits.

Early "multiflora" flowers are more likely to be cross pollinated. Additionally, I find that early in the season flowers are more often visited by bumblebees, likely because there aren't as many other options available at that time.

Late in the season fruits may have fewer viable seeds. But this is all dependent on environment and weather conditions.[/QUOTE]


It's different here - early in the season we only have queen bumblebees around, and they will not bother with tomatoes because they need nectar as well as pollen (tomato flowers have no nectar to offer). Once the first worker brood is out, they're all over the tomatoes to feed the next crew. So the early tomato is my best bet, and very late would be second best, when the bee action is mostly over.


Purity aside, what a great bonus I got when bees made a cross between sibling F3's, and I ended up with lots of determinate plants to select from. Two generations later they're still segregating like an F3 though.

Interesting thread; not sure how I missed it. I saved seed from my Chef's Choice Pink (hybrid) last year and grew out the F2s in 2019. The F2 was identical to the parent plant, but maybe a bit smaller in stature. The fruit seemed identical, as well, but slightly smaller, and I could tell very little difference in taste... F3 seeds are waiting to be planted in 2020; I'll keep y'all updated!

Making any kind of conclusion from "The" F2 is very problematic, and misleading.

[QUOTE=Goodloe;749074]Interesting thread; not sure how I missed it. I saved seed from my Chef's Choice Pink (hybrid) last year and grew out the F2s in 2019. The F2 was identical to the parent plant, but maybe a bit smaller in stature. The fruit seemed identical, as well, but slightly smaller, and I could tell very little difference in taste... F3 seeds are waiting to be planted in 2020; I'll keep y'all updated![/QUOTE]

Burpee 4th of july hybrid went from a RL to PL after many generations (lost track)
The PL plants had fruit similar to original and were indeterminate.A few other plants
had larger fruit that was multi chambered and the plants were determinate.Probably
the original cross.
My guess is they crossed a cherry indeterminate with the larger determinate
that was an early type.They and others sell a tomato called independence
day which is larger than a cherry and determinate.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;749053]So, you pop into a thread in which people are "arguing" to call people "crazy"?

Well, thank you for not arguing or anything.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkRed][B]Part of my new attitude is zero tolerance for asshats like him being allowed here.
[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][SIZE=3][COLOR=DarkRed][B]He's been banned seven ways to Sunday. :twisted:
[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;751157]Making any kind of conclusion from "The" F2 is very problematic, and misleading.[/QUOTE]

I defer to your expertise here, Fred, but I was not making "conclusions"...merely noting observations from my grow out. The F3s will provide further observations. "Conclusions" are far in the future, and yet to be determined....F8, or F9, maybe...?

I realize that you were simply reporting that your F2 plant looked similar to the hybrid, and of course you have every right to grow out as many plants as you can or would like to every generation and report on what you see.

I just think reports that "F2 looked like the hybrid" are all too common, and feed into the idea that the F1 really isn't special or worthwhile.

And when one or few plants are looked at, the segregation of traits is harder to see, so it is no wonder that people don't see them.

And since this is a thread that is about those issues, I commented.


[QUOTE=Goodloe;751359]I defer to your expertise here, Fred, but I was not making "conclusions"...merely noting observations from my grow out. The F3s will provide further observations. "Conclusions" are far in the future, and yet to be determined....F8, or F9, maybe...?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;751384]I realize that you were simply reporting that your F2 plant looked similar to the hybrid, and of course you have every right to grow out as many plants as you can or would like to every generation and report on what you see.

I just think reports that "F2 looked like the hybrid" are all too common, and feed into the idea that the F1 really isn't special or worthwhile.

And when one or few plants are looked at, the segregation of traits is harder to see, so it is no wonder that people don't see them.

And since this is a thread that is about those issues, I commented.[/QUOTE]

Chef's Choice Pink (F1) is a beautiful tomato. I ordered more seeds just the other day. I'll grow it as long as I'm physically able to. I'll continue my "de-hybridization" project nonetheless; I'm just curious. I'll continue to post my observations of this project here at Tomatoville. Any input you might offer will be greatly appreciated!!

Excellent

I was just wondering if anyone had ever really dehybridized some familiar tomato. I do not just mean that the result is similar to the original F1 or that it tastes similar. I also mean fertility, disease resistance etc.
Vladimír

Whoever was able to capture all the F1 traits probably also won the lottery and got struck by lightning on the same day.


[QUOTE=MrBig46;751402]I was just wondering if anyone had ever really dehybridized some familiar tomato. I do not just mean that the result is similar to the original F1 or that it tastes similar. I also mean fertility, disease resistance etc.
Vladimír[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrBig46;751402]I was just wondering if anyone had ever really dehybridized some familiar tomato. I do not just mean that the result is similar to the original F1 or that it tastes similar. I also mean fertility, disease resistance etc.
Vladimír[/QUOTE]

Perhaps phenotypically the F2s appear the same to amateur growers, but there is zero chance they are genotypically the same as the F1s. I think if folks grow out hundreds of F2s and select only the best ones - in a manner similar to what Alexander Livingston did in the 1870s - then hundreds of F3s, etc., then they may be able to stabilize some pretty good tomatoes. The odds of producing something good from stabilizing a couple of F2 seedlings is pretty low.