Tomatoville® Gardening Forums - Hybrid is as Hybrid does

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[QUOTE=Fusion_power;415776]I dug around for a while and found Doug Heath working for Bejo seeds as principal tomato breeder. Just so you will know he is still in the industry and working on tomatoes.

If you read the blog below, you will find several references to a super sweet orange cherry and/or grape tomato. I expect to see something interesting come from it in the near future. It is very high carotene and brix in the range of 12 to 15.

[url]http://portraitofafarm.blogspot.com/2011/04/woodland-california-doug-heath-monsanto.html[/url][/QUOTE]

I just got through reading the blog and found lots of interesting info,

First, the blog was dated 2011 at which time Doug was working for Petoseeds, as I had surmised, and it was he who was working with Tye Dye, and since I know Petoseed did contract work for Burpee, it was Doug who developed that one for Burpee.

I find that most breeders did not like the word tolerance, although I know the tomato Industry switched to that from resistance when those lawsuits went to court from some large scale farmers who said their commercially bought seed said to be resistant to whatever, wasn't.

The breeders prefer intermediate resistance to tolerance.;)

You might remember that Randy Gardner had subcontracted to Bejo for his varieties Mt Magic, PLum Regal and Smarty, all hybrids. There were major problems with seed production so introduction was delayed.

Bejo has a presence in W NYS and I remember that Steve, can't remember his user name here, he takes great pictures and recently moved to SC, said he got seeds for some of those hybrids from a Bejo rep, and does the name Doug Heath sound partially famiiar to me? Yes, partially,

I saw that Doug also worked in FL at one time when he still with Petoseed. I had asked Linda Sapp a question she couldn't answer and so she called JayScott and asked him about it and he said to have me contact a breeder from Petoseed who was working in FL and gave a phone number.

And I'm pretty sure it was Doug I spoke to and we had a long chat. As I recall it was about nematode breaking strains, going both ways, that is from the nematode side and well as the plant side, and we also talked about his work with pollen clumping in high sustained heat.

Great read for me and I hope for others as well.

Carolyn, who forgot some of the other points she wanted to bring up, but the above are the major ones

,

Frogleap, Zima is a grape. The original is a round orange cherry. The grape mentioned in the blog is probably the hybrid Zima. The orange cherry is an open pollinated line. Just pointing out that they are not exactly the same.

:oSorry I am new here and also a new gardener, so I am totally unconcious when it comes to seeds, plants, when to plant and when to pick. But, if hybrids come from other seed (older seeds) aren't all seeds hybrid? Where else do you get seeds?

[QUOTE=pj4reliv;440150]:oSorry I am new here and also a new gardener, so I am totally unconcious when it comes to seeds, plants, when to plant and when to pick. But, if hybrids come from other seed (older seeds) aren't all seeds hybrid? Where else do you get seeds?[/QUOTE]The simplified answer is this:
Hybrids in this context are a specific result of a specific breeding program. You take two separate true breeding lines and cross them. The F1 generation will be consistent, but following generations will not. They will be all mixed up. An OP cultivar on the other hand will breed true for many generations.

If you save your own seed this is a very important thing. Because save a seed from a hybrid and no telling what you will grow next year. Might generally end up with inferior plants. But save an OP cultivar seeds and you should expect fairly consistent results. All the plants should produce the tomato you expect.

PS Welcome to Tville!:D

[QUOTE=Redbaron;440314]Might generally end up with inferior plants.[/QUOTE]

Not really. As long as both parent lines were selected for properly, and don't contain certain traits that are deleterious in the homozygote. I save seed from hybrids all the time, tis fun.

To the original question. "cultivars" are a man made was of classifying things by traits. "Hybrid" is also a man made classification to help understand that particular strains origin (two generally uniform strains were crossed to produce it). Wild plants have all kinds of mixtures of genes, that's why there is a constant war between the lumpers and the splitters in species classification. So in a sense, yes, everything is a "Hybrid" but that's not really the way that word is intended to be used.

[QUOTE=Antares;554525]Not really. As long as both parent lines were selected for properly, and don't contain certain traits that are deleterious in the homozygote. I save seed from hybrids all the time, tis fun.
[/QUOTE]

Theory says you'll lose the hybrid vigour associated with the F1 in your F2s/F3s etc. I have a small garden so I need every volume advantage I can get. :-)

[QUOTE=RJGlew;554562]Theory says you'll lose the hybrid vigour associated with the F1 in your F2s/F3s etc. I have a small garden so I need every volume advantage I can get. :-)[/QUOTE]

Yes in outbreeders like corn, absolutely. In inbreeders like tomatoes, I haven't seen a big drop in vigor from the Hybrid to the F2 and beyond, my big pink F3s last year were actually more productive than the F1 (but the fruit shape is different than the original, lol). Still, much easier to buy the Hybrids you know do well in your place if uniformity and production is your goal, True. I have plenty of production, experimentation is what I enjoy most. "select the best, cull the rest"

[QUOTE=b54red;325143]doublehelix, I have grown out a few hybrid seed form tomatoes and find the results a mess; but with some hybrid bell pepper seed I have seen very little difference between the hybrid and the grow outs from the seed. When I first grew out a few hybrid pepper seed about 10 years ago I was expecting the kind of crazy variety that I got from tomatoes. What I got were similar plants with similar fruit and characteristics so I kept growing a few every year and still am getting the same kind of results. Every once in a while one will turn out to be a plant that produces markedly smaller fruit but that has been the rare exception. I have been quite surprised by these results. I am no scientist and don't understand the genetics behind hybridization but it would seem to me that the parents must be very similar to the resulting hybrid for this to be the case.[/QUOTE]
Good to know given the price and availability of some hybrid pepper seeds.
Larry

Sometimes, it would seem some companies label varieties "hybrids" when they are nothing more than open pollinated lines. Sure cuts the cost of production and may dissuade the competition.

[QUOTE=PhilaGardener;586931]Sometimes, it would seem some companies label varieties "hybrids" when they are nothing more than open pollinated lines. Sure cuts the cost of production and may dissuade the competition.[/QUOTE]
Sounds interesting.
Do you have examples of companies and varieties? Maybe I've tried to grow some of them.

In order to make this true, I hereby announce that all of the Artisan Cherry tomatoes are hybrids, and faux F1 seed must be purchased at [url]www.growartisan.com[/url]

[QUOTE=PhilaGardener;586931]Sometimes, it would seem some companies label varieties "hybrids" when they are nothing more than open pollinated lines. Sure cuts the cost of production and may dissuade the competition.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;586938]In order to make this true, I hereby announce that all of the Artisan Cherry tomatoes are hybrids, and faux F1 seed must be purchased at [url]www.growartisan.com[/url][/QUOTE]
That Hands on Tomato Growing and Breeding Workshop surely sounds interesting. I would definitely be in the beginners section. :lol:
Larry

We've all been there!